A tale of two tires (brands)

[HRJ]

When I replaced the tires the first time on my '16 Hellcat Challenger, I made the change from the Pirelli All Season PZeros to the PZero summer tire in the stock sizing. Basically, the factory fitted summer tire offering. When I did, I couldn't get rid of tire shake due to balance issues. I warrantied out a complete set TWICE trying to get a set that would balance. They took a lot of weight and for a bit there I thought maybe I had bent all 4 wheels somehow, but they all tested good.

I decided it was a sh!t tire, so I went looking for a 275/40ZR20 (106Y) tire that wasn't a Pirelli. The only thing I could find that fit the bill was a Michelin Pilot Sport 4. There were all sorts of tires with the correct load rating and size, but not the (Y) speed rating. Immediately upon bolting that set of tires on I noticed a couple of things. First, no more shake. The tires balanced easily and were very stable at cruising speed. The 2nd thing that I noticed was a pronounced "death wobble" on hard acceleration at high speed. When I was on it hard and the speeds got up above 70-80, the car would progressively rock back and forth harder and harder as I went. I tried stiffer suspension setting and it helped, but the wobble was still noticeable. I tried all kinds of alignment changes to no avail. I regularly had my car above 175 and that kind of thing made those speeds scary and stupid to attempt.

I had to know if it was the tire or if something else was wrong, so to start the process of elimination I bolted on a new set of the Pirelli PZero summer tire. This time, the tires balanced out perfectly and the wobble is GONE. I love my car again.

My guesses..
1. I must have been in the middle of a bad batch of Pirellis when I first bolted up the summer tire.
2. There must be a significant sidewall spring rate difference in the Michelin and the Pirelli.

Just sharing this in case someone else experiences the same issue. Hope this helps.

 

[Hunter]

I have the Michelin PS4 on the front (20 x 10 Triumphs). Have 285/35R20.
Rear is 20 x 11.5 Triumphs with 335/30R20
Only had car up to about 120 - 230. No wobble though.

 

[Hunter]

I have the Michelin PS4 on the front (20 x 10 Triumphs). Have 285/35R20.
Rear is 20 x 11.5 Triumphs with 335/30R20
Only had car up to about 120 - 230. No wobble though.

That was supposed to be 120 to 130.

 

[Hellcatcfp]

I have the Michelin PS4 on the front (20 x 10 Triumphs). Have 285/35R20.
Rear is 20 x 11.5 Triumphs with 335/30R20
Only had car up to about 120 - 230. No wobble though.

Was gonna say those Triumphs are amazing...230 mph...how about that.

 

[Hellcatcfp]

When I replaced the tires the first time on my '16 Hellcat Challenger, I made the change from the Pirelli All Season PZeros to the PZero summer tire in the stock sizing. Basically, the factory fitted summer tire offering. When I did, I couldn't get rid of tire shake due to balance issues. I warrantied out a complete set TWICE trying to get a set that would balance. They took a lot of weight and for a bit there I thought maybe I had bent all 4 wheels somehow, but they all tested good.

I decided it was a sh!t tire, so I went looking for a 275/40ZR20 (106Y) tire that wasn't a Pirelli. The only thing I could find that fit the bill was a Michelin Pilot Sport 4. There were all sorts of tires with the Immediately upon bolting that set of tires on I noticed a couple of things. First, no more shake. The tires balanced easily and were very stable at cruising speed. The 2nd thing that I noticed was a pronounced "death wobble" on hard acceleration at high speed. When I was on it hard and the speeds got up above 70-80, the car would progressively rock back and forth harder and harder as I went. I tried stiffer suspension setting and it helped, but the wobble was still noticeable. I tried all kinds of alignment changes to no avail. I regularly had my car above 175 and that kind of thing made those speeds scary and stupid to attempt.

I had to know if it was the tire or if something else was wrong, so to start the process of elimination I bolted on a new set of the Pirelli PZero summer tire. This time, the tires balanced out perfectly and the wobble is GONE. I love my car again.

My guesses..
1. I must have been in the middle of a bad batch of Pirellis when I first bolted up the summer tire.
2. There must be a significant sidewall spring rate difference in the Michelin and the Pirelli.

Just sharing this in case someone else experiences the same issue. Hope this helps.

Great post. Have vibration myself at 77-80 mph. My tire guy swears it is the run flats...P-Zero summer tires. Says PS4s will change my life...so thinking about going that route. Also noticed vibration is less noticeable in sport mode vs street mode which is interesting. Coming up on 11,000 miles on summer P-Zeros...so looking to get that vibration nonsense figured out. Thanks for sharing and I will keep this issue updated as I get closer to changing tires. Great post HRJ...super helpful.

 

[Hpindy]

Interesting. While I never get up to your top speeds the vibration at 70-80 is quite annoying plus they are like grease on hard blips of the throttle. How were the michelin's at speeds?

Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk

 

[Matt someone with an SRT]

The compound on the Michelin’s are far superior. Huge upgrade over the
Perillis. Especially with wider wheels. On the street I’d give perillis zero a 6/10 in the dry traction and the Michelin’s a 9/10. It’s worth the extra $ imo. Michelin’s ps4s grab decent in the wet too.

 

[MikeD1]

1st time I've ever seen a post complaining about the PS4's, obviously like anything mass produced, there can be a bad batch or stray tire. Even 1 bad tire could cause issues or you could have a wheel issue.
I've had P0's that were bad (could not be properly balanced), but have had no issues with the set that came on my '16.

One thing I highly recommend when you are having any sort of vibration issues is to find a place that has a Hunter RoadForce Elite balancer. These measure not just the tire but the wheel as well (for runout etc.) and makes sure the weights are placed exactly where they need to be. This has helped a lot of ppl I know who have had annoying vibration issues. Make sure it's the RoadForce Elite, as Hunter also makes 'regular' balancers and that's what most places have.

 

[HRJ]

The compound on the Michelin’s are far superior. Huge upgrade over the
Perillis. Especially with wider wheels. On the street I’d give perillis zero a 6/10 in the dry traction and the Michelin’s a 9/10. It’s worth the extra $ imo. Michelin’s ps4s grab decent in the wet too.

I agree that comparing compounds between the Pirelli and the Michelin, the Michelin wins. Durability, wet performance, etc.

But the high speed instability was terrible.

 

[Magnified]

That was complete dejavu reading that HRJ. I put PS4S on about a year or so ago and eventually got them all refunded for the same reason (plus a few other things I noticed, I got the same back and forth even at low speeds under WOT, but it was controllable - I'd stay in and try and analyze why it was happening - i personally think our west texas asphalt composition played a role in it too). Had great experiences with other Pilot series tires (still have a set on the GTO) but the PS4 just didn't work on the Charger.

 

[Greengohellcat]

I read about this PS4S instability somewhere else (guess where lol!). I'm definitely going to get new rubber and these tires were top of my list with Conti ECS a close 2nd.
I asked my trusted tire guy (also a buddy) about the best street tire; Michelin came out on top. He went to a tire test put on by Conti they supplied the cars with various tires.
PS4S edged out the host tire company's best, the ECS, in every test.
The takeaway was that the Conti was 90%+ as good as the Michelin for $100+ cheaper per tire.
He's perplexed by the report of inherent high speed instability with the Michelin.
I know putting too wide of a tire on a given rim can cause this ie 295+ section width on our 9.5" wheel, but these reports are not necessarily coming about from this scenario.
Has ANYONE experienced this phenomenon with stock size tire + rim with the Continental ECS??

 

[Hellcatcfp]

That was complete dejavu reading that HRJ. I put PS4S on about a year or so ago and eventually got them all refunded for the same reason (plus a few other things I noticed, I got the same back and forth even at low speeds under WOT, but it was controllable - I'd stay in and try and analyze why it was happening - i personally think our west texas asphalt composition played a role in it too). Had great experiences with other Pilot series tires (still have a set on the GTO) but the PS4 just didn't work on the Charger.

Truthfully, I am going to be driving mostly between 0-100 mph, though, got me rethinking about the PS4s. However, if I ever go to the track it sounds like the PS4s might not be a perfect solution. Might go with the Conti extreme contacts as what I was settled on before my trusted tire guy recommended PS4s. Really good info as I am making this very decision sooner rather than later. Appreciate it.

 

[Magnified]

I read about this PS4S instability somewhere else (guess where lol!). I'm definitely going to get new rubber and these tires were top of my list with Conti ECS a close 2nd.
I asked my trusted tire guy (also a buddy) about the best street tire; Michelin came out on top. He went to a tire test put on by Conti they supplied the cars with various tires.
PS4S edged out the host tire company's best, the ECS, in every test.
The takeaway was that the Conti was 90%+ as good as the Michelin for $100+ cheaper per tire.
He's perplexed by the report of inherent high speed instability with the Michelin.
I know putting too wide of a tire on a given rim can cause this ie 295+ section width on our 9.5" wheel, but these reports are not necessarily coming about from this scenario.
Has ANYONE experienced this phenomenon with stock size tire + rim with the Continental ECS??

The PS4s I had were all stock size, on OEM rims.

There's more details on my experience with them on the old site...

 

[Hellcatcfp]

The PS4s I had were all stock size, on OEM rims.

There's more details on my experience with them on the old site...

Please don't make me go back there.

 

[Lord Hellcat]

I was going to fit PS4's when I changed my Pireilli summer tyres last year. I spoke with a company that supplies a lot of race tyres. He said do not fit PS4's as the side wall is too soft and recommended pilot sports. I fitted the pilot sports and they too have a soft side wall and the back end of the car on the strip would be like a tank slapper on a motorbike when aired down and they were real squirrely on the road. It felt like the bushes in the rear trailing arms were shot. So with tyres not more than 1500 miles old I bought some HR5's from PK 9.5 and 11. Fitted Toyo R888R 285/35/20 and 305/35/20. Car feels very planted now. Next stage is front and rear strut braces, subframe connectors and a bump steer kit.
Note that like most tyres PS4's are not all the same. Different side walls depending on vehicle fitment. ie the tyre compound will be different for say a Ferrari or a Porsche. Some of you might have got lucky with a stiffer sidewall. I was not going to waste another £1200 on more crap tyres. I have another car which runs a 335/30/20 Michelin Pilot Sport. Under hard acceleration you can still feel the tyre wall move around. Not so bad through the corners but the car is a lot lighter 2860lb's with 612hp.

 

[Greengohellcat]

The PS4s I had were all stock size, on OEM rims.

There's more details on my experience with them on the old site...

Yup, that's where I read about this before.
I will be going with a stock size and do not want to be in a situation of regretting my tire choice...

Would the instability be due to a softer sidewall? I heard that the Michelins ride softer?

 

[Matt someone with an SRT]

The PS4s I had were all stock size, on OEM rims.

There's more details on my experience with them on the old site...

Interesting.. on 10.5 reps I got no wobble. 285 F and 295 /35 Rear. I actually noticed a bit of a wobble under hard acceleration with the p zero from like 15-50 Mph on OEM. The ass would just shimmy.. I mean under too much power those tires and wheels just can’t put it down.. especially in cooler weather it’s a bit scary.. you do rolling burnouts everywhere in the P zeros. The Michelin’s franky are tough to do a burnout unless you foot brake it initially.. with the bigger wheels I had... it’ll do this thing if you mash it to quick at the hole where it’ll have excessive wheel hop trying to get traction. If you bleed it to 15-20 mph before you mash it though it just takes off and grabs hard. The perillis I had to play with the throttle until 60+.. with the perillis I slipped at the 1-2 shift in sport and track modes as well as the shift from second to third. None of that happens now.

 

[Matt someone with an SRT]

Can you do this on stock perillis on the street? Here’s the facts...

 

[Magnified]

lol, no, not on stock pirellis. has a lot to do with the quality of the local asphalt too

 

[DGatzby]

Can you do this on stock perillis on the street? Here’s the facts... View attachment 1138 View attachment 1139

Matt, you need to put away the 1.1 second thing.

Guys I have beat the snot out of 285/35's on 9.5" rims (PS4S) on our track, they are NOT unstable. All of last season videos with my '15 are on those.