840HP Mode

[MaxCarnage]

If only they offered this with HPT sigh.

I've not heard of folks blowing their cars up on flex tuning in current form for not testing E85. That was kinda the point right? To not have to test it and it just transition from E85 all the way down to 93? What am I missing.

Talking to Curt, GM is the only manufacturer that uses a sensor to determine flex fuel alcohol content. The rest use oxygen sensors according to him.

I've not used either, so I don't know which is better. Seeing alcohol content on the dash gauges would be nice though.

I may play with some of this stuff next year, with HPTuners of course.

Well perhaps I am mistaken and the guys blowing up their engines were on an E85 tune and not the Flex (oxygen sensor version) of it. I don't know of many people that have blown up their engines from ethanol (heard about a couple). Correct me if I'm wrong, but a sensor that is designed for flex sounds like a smart way to go. I guess it depends on which one reacts and scales the best and appropriately depending on the ethanol content. For me personally I want to be able to just pump ethanol into my car without having to worry if the content is within a certain percentage or I'll be ruining my engine. The less mistakes I can make, the better, lol. Not a lot of Ethanol options in my area. So I'd like to be able to get a drum of it for racing (from a local vendor), then just run pump gas on the street.

Right now you can see E content with HP Tuners (I like that) on a laptop. Diablo doesn't support that. However, this apparently will, and will show up somewhere on your dash. This might end up being an option for HPT as well. I don't see why it couldn't? Just a matter of someone making it happen.

 

[Speedy!]

Well perhaps I am mistaken and the guys blowing up their engines were on an E85 tune and not the Flex (oxygen sensor version) of it. I don't know of many people that have blown up their engines from ethanol (heard about a couple). Correct me if I'm wrong, but a sensor that is designed for flex sounds like a smart way to go. I guess it depends on which one reacts and scales the best and appropriately depending on the ethanol content. For me personally I want to be able to just pump ethanol into my car without having to worry if the content is within a certain percentage or I'll be ruining my engine. The less mistakes I can make, the better, lol. Not a lot of Ethanol options in my area. So I'd like to be able to get a drum of it for racing (from a local vendor), then just run pump gas on the street.

Right now you can see E content with HP Tuners (I like that) on a laptop. Diablo doesn't support that. However, this apparently will, and will show up somewhere on your dash. This might end up being an option for HPT as well. I don't see why it couldn't? Just a matter of someone making it happen.

Well, any flex fuel setup should likely be on the mild side for all the mojo. It's just good practice. For example if your dedicated tested E85 tune is 21 deg of timing up top then maybe the flex fuel setup has 17 or 18 as a margin of safety up top. It should then adjust from there and lower timing based on sensed alcohol content.

Now, if folks have a dedicated E85 tune and aren't testing fuel then yeah, I can see that eating some engines.

I used to think all OEMs used a sensor and was surprised to learn GM was the only one. My Camaro has a plug for the sensor built in it making it super easy to convert to flex, I've just not messed with it.

I have no idea which is better.

 

[hellno]

My flex fuel will go as high as 21.5 depending on ethanol content but I have it at just a little under 15 lbs of boost with the 3.10 and 10 percent overdrive

 

[MaxCarnage]

Well, any flex fuel setup should likely be on the mild side for all the mojo. It's just good practice. For example if your dedicated tested E85 tune is 21 deg of timing up top then maybe the flex fuel setup has 17 or 18 as a margin of safety up top. It should then adjust from there and lower timing based on sensed alcohol content.

Now, if folks have a dedicated E85 tune and aren't testing fuel then yeah, I can see that eating some engines.

I used to think all OEMs used a sensor and was surprised to learn GM was the only one. My Camaro has a plug for the sensor built in it making it super easy to convert to flex, I've just not messed with it.

I have no idea which is better.

From my understanding (from talking to various tuners) I agree. The flex will be a bit more mild vs a E85 tune. So in that case some guys might run flex, and then a dedicated Ignite E90 tune for the HO mode. Just depends on your goals. I don't know what hp/tq difference there might be between the two, but I'd guess that would depend on your setup. I just watched the video of Jeremy Satera @ Satera tuning showing how the sensor adjusts as the levels of ethanol change. He went from pump gas with about 10% ethanol content (which didn't seem to adjust the FF timing up/down) to pump E85 which read about 75%. Once it seen the higher ethanol it adjusted FF timing up to 9 or so. He then showed a before and after of gains of pump with 10% E vs the 75% E content. Couldn't tell what he tested it on, but it wasn't making enough power to be a Hellcat (maybe a 392). He said it will work for the 5.7, 6.4, and 6.2.

Pricing is supposed to be released tomorrow. So since this isn't coming directly from Tim Barth (He's just working with Jeremy Satera @ Satera tuning), I'd think this should be available to other tuners who want to use it in the future. Tim is just working closely with it, likely because it goes well as an additional option for HO mode.

Directly from Satera Tuning:

***HUGE ANNOUNCEMEN***
*
MOPAR "TRUE FLEX FUEL" IS HERE.
*
Extremely proud of my crew and wife for putting up with my crazy ideas and goals... but it has paid off
*
We now have TRUE flex fuel utilizing an ethanol content sensor. Timing and AFR all are controlled by the factory PCM. No piggy backs or additional computers needed. *
No more worrying about if it is safe, or having to test everytime you fill up.
*
We will be announcing pricing on kits tomorrow. We are continuing testing and tuning on all mopar platforms.

 

[motorhead]

If only they offered this with HPT sigh.

I've not heard of folks blowing their cars up on flex tuning in current form for not testing E85. That was kinda the point right? To not have to test it and it just transition from E85 all the way down to 93? What am I missing.

Talking to Curt, GM is the only manufacturer that uses a sensor to determine flex fuel alcohol content. The rest use oxygen sensors according to him.

I've not used either, so I don't know which is better. Seeing alcohol content on the dash gauges would be nice though.

I may play with some of this stuff next year, with HPTuners of course.

Yeah, I opened HP Tuners last night before bed and refreshed my memory about what I saw. One thing is the Flex Fuel sensor patch that can be added to the existing OS in HP Tuners, and the other is how you "fit" the car for a virtual sensor. Nothing scary about that as long as it has the appropriate range of adjustment and can determine Lambda from the fuel trims using the WB02s.

The GM sensors use a frequency based system (like a MAF) to determine the alcohol content in the fuel, I am sure there is a way to adapt this.

 

[MaxCarnage]

Here is the pricing info and extra information including a link to their site:

"Pricing for the "TRUE Flex Fuel" Kit is up and on our site.

Compatible with ANY 2005+ 5.7, 6.1, 6.4, and 6.2sc

The first several kit, we want to do in house. That being said we will be offering Free installation on the first 10 kits. Tuning and Fuel system are required for this to work.

We are working to reduce the costs of the kits get more bulk orders together. If that is the case and you pre-order the kit we will just apply the cost difference toward your tuning.
**Remember you will need to make sure you have a proper fuel system to handle E85 if you do not already have it.
If you are unsure we can set you up with any fueling needs you might have as well.**"
https://sateratuningstore.com/mopar-true-flex-fuel/

 

[NotSoStealthy]

Why is it that they go with Diablo over HPT? I'll be blatantly honest... all of you guys have more knowledge in this regard than I do. I know a lot of guys in the Viper crowd run HPT but I never hear of Diablo over there. I bought the HPT Pro model for tuning my GenIV Viper, in-which I was very happy. Just bummed to have spent $1,200 on that Pro model and it is useless with respect to what they are offering for my Redeye.

 

[fubar569]

Satera's site shows HPT logging those parameters...not CMR or any Diablo handheld.

Hmmm...

 

[MaxCarnage]

Satera's site shows HPT logging those parameters...not CMR or any Diablo handheld.

Hmmm...

I asked them a couple questions and they told me this:

"I am working with HPT and Diablo to actually display the content on the dash and radio."

Website says this:
"Due to the amount of time and research we have into this product, we will be limiting who we will allow distribute the product. As well there will only be 3 Tuners we will allow to tune our product too. We are doing this to make sure the quality of service and tune are maintained."

Tim Barth, AJ (Hemituner), and Satera will be the tuners. All of which are Diablo tuners from my understanding.

Product isn't expected to be released until Jan 15th 2020. Even after it's released they will only do in house installs for awhile.

They also said this about any FF currently on the market (besides theirs):
"Any previous "flex fuel" to this point was anticipated logic. And the way it displays ethanol content is purely by a math equation and fuel trims."

This is so new, it will take some time before we start seeing feedback and results from people. Eventually other tuners might get access to it as well. For now it seems like they have partnered with Tim and AJ so it can work with the HO mode.

 

[MaxCarnage]

Why is it that they go with Diablo over HPT? I'll be blatantly honest... all of you guys have more knowledge in this regard than I do. I know a lot of guys in the Viper crowd run HPT but I never hear of Diablo over there. I bought the HPT Pro model for tuning my GenIV Viper, in-which I was very happy. Just bummed to have spent $1,200 on that Pro model and it is useless with respect to what they are offering for my Redeye.

My guess is Tim and AJ work with Diablo and this new FF is designed to work with that. Use normal (non HO mode) for a FF that runs a bit safer (any range of ethanol content), and for street driving. Then setup HO mode for track 85%+ ethanol content and give it a more aggressive tune. HPT can do something similar to this as well, it just involves loading another tune, vs just pushing a button. I'm sure HPT tuners could get access to this as well, but that's up to Satera.

 

[MaxCarnage]

To further add to Satera's FF. Their FF sensor sends the information it sees at the fuel rail to an ethanol gauge, which outputs that data to your ECU. Your ECU then makes adjustments (AFR/Timing) from the ethanol content data it received.

 

[Speedy!]

The video on Satera's site was pretty slick with a new PID for FF timing add. I dig it and hope something other than Diablo is eventually supported.

I wonder if Satera does HPT tuning? The video was for sure HPT.

 

[NotSoStealthy]

I would be more than happy with a 50 to 100 whp gain on 100+ octane. E85 isn't that common up here in the northeast and I really don't have any interest. Car is sleeping in the garage until spring so I guess I am in no rush.

 

[MaxCarnage]

I would be more than happy with a 50 to 100 whp gain on 100+ octane. E85 isn't that common up here in the northeast and I really don't have any interest. Car is sleeping in the garage until spring so I guess I am in no rush.

My area has a very limited supply of ethanol. I am going to try and run it, but I only have 2 sources of ethanol, both of which come by the barrel (none are pump). It's around $4.79 a gallon too, far more expensive than the Midwest, but far cheaper than something like MS109 which is around $16 a gallon. I will only be running it when racing, and using pump gas on the street. With a tune on stock pulley on race gas you should be able to achieve your goals though.

Overall I'm hoping E85 spreads to my state (and many others). We need distilleries and refineries here though, and that would be a great help. My state is mostly pushing electric though unfortunately. I've been keeping an eye on E85 and it's progress (or lack there of). There are definitely racers here that want it, but the cost would have to come down a lot for a regular consumer to buy it.

 

[MaxCarnage]

The video on Satera's site was pretty slick with a new PID for FF timing add. I dig it and hope something other than Diablo is eventually supported.

I wonder if Satera does HPT tuning? The video was for sure HPT.

I sent a PM to Satera, I will post when I get a reply back from them. It would be in their best interest to share this with at least a couple HPT tuners, otherwise they are losing out on money from those who are with HPT. Hoping they also do a group buy or the price of this FF kit goes down a bit. $1k is a bit spendy, considering this is only part of what all is needed to run FF.

 

[MaxCarnage]

@Speedy!

After asking Satera Tuning about HPT support here is their reply:

"There will only be 3 tuners with access. Satera Tuning (HPT and Diablo), Barth (Diablo), and AJ (Diablo). It is supported on HP and Diablo ."

So if you are on HPT, Satera will be the only tuner you can go to for this. Otherwise the other 2 tuners are options, but will require you using Diablo.

 

[fubar569]

Hey. At least it's an option. That's better than having to completely switch...

But sounds like you still need to if you want drag mode or HO mode.

 

[Speedy!]

That's good news.

 

[NotSoStealthy]

I think I may have asked this before but I can't figure out what thread or where I posted it.... When speaking of the 100 octane tune, is that referencing the MON or RON numbers? I have been told in the past that the advertised octane for pump gas is an average of MON and RON numbers, would this be true for the 100 octane tune?

 

[MaxCarnage]

I think I may have asked this before but I can't figure out what thread or where I posted it.... When speaking of the 100 octane tune, is that referencing the MON or RON numbers? I have been told in the past that the advertised octane for pump gas is an average of MON and RON numbers, would this be true for the 100 octane tune?

Yes when people are speaking of any octane they are using the (R+M)/2 method. For example, VP MS109 specs are RON = 109 MON = 99, and (R+M)/2 = 104. In the USA, and Canada we use the average of those numbers. Other countries might not, and use just the RON or MON though. In short as long as you make sure the average of RON and MON are at or over 100 octane when using HO mode you are good to go. Use a fuel octane calculator to make sure you have the desired octane level (If you are mixing pump with race fuel).

Here is more info on octane:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating