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Hmmm. ACR Challenger? My suggestions: Light weight, more power, higher redline, Demon Performance brake pads.

DGatzby

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#21
They do offer a top-of-their-line cast iron 405mm front and rear diameter rotor kit for 4190 bucks, with everything included, including park brake compatibility, calipers, mounts, pads, stainless pistons, extra dust boots. That seems pretty good, especially with the cross-drilled-only rotors, since I do not like slots. Curious if Porsche has the tungsten-faced rotors locked up with patents, because that seems, by far, to be the way to go.

That seems rather hard to beat. I am not inclined to replace the well-proven Brembos, however.
Look at the Demon Performance (by Gyrodisc) with Hawk Pads (or an equally good race pad) set-up before you spend an extra $2,000 for what may be marginally better if even that. I have used them for lapping and the rotors wear better than the Brembo rotor.
 


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Thread Starter #22
5500 dollar wheels? Where?

I want carbon fiber if I'm paying that much.
 


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Thread Starter #23
Look at the Demon Performance (by Gyrodisc) with Hawk Pads (or an equally good race pad) set-up before you spend an extra $2,000 for what may be marginally better if even that. I have used them for lapping and the rotors wear better than the Brembo rotor.
They do?

Also, do they dust less? The rotors, not the pads. Do they produce reduced cleaning chores for my slave army (ME) than the stockers? Have you tried them side-by-side against the stockers with the same pad material?

I'm all for less wear and less dust.
 


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Thread Starter #24
Oops, found the carbon fiber option after selecting a rim center. I don't like the rim centers. I like the more 3D effect of some of the stockers. Looks less cut-and-pasted from a CAD program.
 


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Thread Starter #25
Still searching for that 11" wide version of the 7-spoke satin black Y-spokes that doesn't hang out of the fenders like a stripper's boobs.

As an addendum, an ambition I have is to cram 345's under the back end, without having them protrude. That is an entire project in and of itself.

I also want to find the largest tire that can intelligently fit under the front fenders while I'm at it.
 


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#26
That's funny,, loose sum weight. Go on a diet I Guess??
 


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#27
They do?

Also, do they dust less? The rotors, not the pads. Do they produce reduced cleaning chores for my slave army (ME) than the stockers? Have you tried them side-by-side against the stockers with the same pad material?

I'm all for less wear and less dust.
So:
The rotors are not the CAUSE of dust. Different pads cause different amounts of dust while others hardly dust at all. Don't matter what rotor. A pad like the OE pad from Brembo is a very durable metallic all around pad. On the street with normal driving, when cold most of the time, it does a nasty cold grinding job on the rotors, putting off dust from itself and also from the rotor it is wearing out prematurely. Take it to the track, and its materials are made to also be a performer with more heat. It will lay down a film onto the rotor if it is "bedded-in" appropriately and work good. They are good all around pads. Not as good as "racing" pads. Read on...

A pad like a Power-stop Z26 is made from Carbon-Fiber/Ceramic. Those are MUCH more kind to the rotor. They are ok for the street, they won't dust, they won't have the "bite" of the OE Brembo's. Some people don't like that or the fact that they WILL fade from excessive heat upon several panic stops together. But, those type of pads don't have the heat resistance and would fail on applications like on a road course. Or stopping after a half mile or longer race some of the members do. Remember, dusting we find on our wheels and cars will be inversely proportionate to dust. More dust, more bite and wear, less dust, less bite, less overall performance.

I compare those two, because they are the most common choices we always talk about for replacement or basically street use.

Rotors. Do I speak from my own experience? Yes. On the street, I can tell you with a Brembo pad, both a DP rotor and a Brembo rotor will dust. I have used both. On the street with a Z26 pad; no dust. I have used both.

On a road course, I have used both rotors. I have also used for example a Porterfield racing style pad with both. On the Brembo rotor, those worked ok. However, when matched up against the different materials in the DP rotors, those pads failed and caught fire! After that, the set of DP front rotors looked like hell. What did I do, because at the time, I wanted to reinstall my Powerstops for the street? Came home, put in the Brembo pads for a few miles of cold grinding action! They actually made the rotors more smooth and cleaned them off! They were cracked and looked like shit, but were fine for the street, and I used Z26 pads!

What did I learn? The Porterfield pads did not have the resistance to the heat that was being generated against the harder and stronger DP rotor. So after asking some very senior instructors at our track, they recommended some MUCH more expensive Hawk pads for the course.

I used the Brembo rotors on courses for about a season and 1/2. Or say about six sessions. First sessions, I was not as experienced or aggressive as comes with experience. The Brembo's with their own or Porterfield pads lasted about 4 or so days.

I then was introduced to DP rotors. They are made by Gyrodisc, one of the premiere racing brake manufacturers. They save about 30 lbs of unsprung weight over all four corners (more in the rear, plus giving us a two piece design for better heat dissipation). Then magic happened! Use of the most nasty and highest temperature Hawk DTC pads against the DP rotors, not only produced shorter stopping distances than any previous combo, but the DP rotors seem like they have an unreal resistance to wear! I say I am getting double or more wear resistance with the use of DP rotors.

Long response, sorry. Recap: if you are in the market for new rotors, the DP rotors are about the same cost as replacement Brembo rotors, they are lighter and more wear resistant. No difference in dust. Make your choice, but don't spend two more thousand!

If you don't need rotors and your still on the OE pads, change them out to avoid dust. I removed the OE pads before I even drove my RE. About 3000 miles later with the Z26 pads, I defy anyone to even say my rotors have more than a few miles on them! With my street driving style, I really don't expect to ever need new rotors.

When I track my car, I simply do a complete brake job. I have a set of four DP rotors (not my first damaged set), matched to Hawk DTC pads. Shit yes the dust is rampant and is heavy, but that is because they are working, FYI they are not compatible with carbon-ceramic rotors, they work with iron/metal type rotors. But my racing brake system is lighter than the OE set-up and with the different fluid with higher dry and wet boiling points for the MUCH hotter operation, works great all the time. No need to look at items that are thousands more expensive, which finally (sorry) is the point of my response and info back that you, sir. It would be horrible for the street. They would dust WORSE then an OE Brembo set and would grind the hell out of the rotors when cold (almost always on the street). Personally, they are fine for racing, but for street driving with my style of driving, I hate them, they have an uncomfortable bite IMO. I practice smooth driving on the street, I'll look several stop lights ahead to avoid even using the brakes! I really like the Z26 feel for the street of almost nothing compared with what this thing is capable of with different equipment.
 


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I'm an average looking guy - I don't model. I'm 5'8" - I don't play basketball. My ummm... monkey wrench isn't 13" long - I'm don't pretend to be a porn star. Picking up on the pattern? I don't agree with Dodge attempting to make the Challenger their Halo track car. There is no way in Hell that a factory production Hellcat is ever going to ring in a sub 7 minute Ring time. Yeah, yeah... the Viper didn't either but a 7:01 was real damn close and if those crap Kumho's weren't melting off of the car it would have. Moral of the story, a Hellcat is not a Viper. A Hellcat can hit the drag strip like a champ and do well on the track. A Viper can track amazingly and do well at the drag strip. Money being vested towards making the Hellcat their Halo track car is foolish. Both cars are amazing but they have different areas of where they shine best.
 


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Thread Starter #29
So:
The rotors are not the CAUSE of dust. /QUOTE]
Not entirely true.
Porsche specifically painted their brake calipers white to highlight how much cleaner the brakes are with tungsten carbide faced rotors.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...sche-cayennes-tungsten-carbide-coated-brakes/

From the article:
"Hard up for details on Porsche’s new Surface Coated Brakes, or PSCB for short? We visited with the company’s braking and chassis engineers in Germany for more information, and we can say this much: They’re more than just a new way for Porsche to empty your pockets of a few thousand bucks. Besides the brakes’ size and gleaming white-painted calipers, they feature iron rotors coated in a thin, ultra-hard layer of tungsten carbide. This gives them an edge in performance along with reduced wear and dust production over the 2019 Cayenne SUV’s standard-fitment iron rotors. Here’s how they work:
From Dust to (Less) Dust
Porsche’s pathological commitment to outbraking the competition with shorter stopping distances and minimal fade makes for a few minor annoyances, such as: Some Porsches’ brakes occasionally squeal and can give off lots of dust. While many Porsche customers gladly accept the trade-offs for maximum braking performance, some have been pining for the stopping power expected of a performance car with less noise and dust.
Porsche looked at using low-noise, low-dust brake pads as every other manufacturer does. Testing revealed these “comfort pads,” as Porsche calls them, to be unsatisfactory. (Just look at how they doomed a Nissan 370Z we lapped at our annual Lightning Lap track test a few years ago.) So, working with Bosch, Porsche homed in on the rotor instead."

Another case in point: the cleaner spray that turns iron compounds into purple goo that easily washes off that I am using: the brake pads contain no iron. There was a lot of purple goo to clean off of my brakes and wheels after I sprayed on the stuff that turns iron compounds purple.

But, the fantasy that brake dust does not come, at least partially, from actual rotor wear is just that, a fantasy. I know brake dust largely comes from the pads, but it does not come exclusively from the pads. I do believe it is possible to find a combination of a (non-Porsche) rotors and pads that produces less dust.

However, that is not to state that it will be easy to find.

About the rotor/pad combo that caught on fire: I wonder if those pads are bad at conducting heat, so the surface got far hotter. Combined with a rotor that also seemed to conduct heat more poorly, and you have a perfect storm (such as ceramic or carbon rotors.)
 


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Slowpoke387

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#30
I'm an average looking guy - I don't model. I'm 5'8" - I don't play basketball. My ummm... monkey wrench isn't 13" long - I'm don't pretend to be a porn star. Picking up on the pattern? I don't agree with Dodge attempting to make the Challenger their Halo track car. There is no way in Hell that a factory production Hellcat is ever going to ring in a sub 7 minute Ring time. Yeah, yeah... the Viper didn't either but a 7:01 was real damn close and if those crap Kumho's weren't melting off of the car it would have. Moral of the story, a Hellcat is not a Viper. A Hellcat can hit the drag strip like a champ and do well on the track. A Viper can track amazingly and do well at the drag strip. Money being vested towards making the Hellcat their Halo track car is foolish. Both cars are amazing but they have different areas of where they shine best.
But it will sell. All of the above is irrelevant with that in mind.
 


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Wrong.
Porsche specifically painted their brake calipers white to highlight how much cleaner the brakes are with tungsten carbide faced rotors.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...sche-cayennes-tungsten-carbide-coated-brakes/

From the article:
"Hard up for details on Porsche’s new Surface Coated Brakes, or PSCB for short? We visited with the company’s braking and chassis engineers in Germany for more information, and we can say this much: They’re more than just a new way for Porsche to empty your pockets of a few thousand bucks. Besides the brakes’ size and gleaming white-painted calipers, they feature iron rotors coated in a thin, ultra-hard layer of tungsten carbide. This gives them an edge in performance along with reduced wear and dust production over the 2019 Cayenne SUV’s standard-fitment iron rotors. Here’s how they work:
From Dust to (Less) Dust
Porsche’s pathological commitment to outbraking the competition with shorter stopping distances and minimal fade makes for a few minor annoyances, such as: Some Porsches’ brakes occasionally squeal and can give off lots of dust. While many Porsche customers gladly accept the trade-offs for maximum braking performance, some have been pining for the stopping power expected of a performance car with less noise and dust.
Porsche looked at using low-noise, low-dust brake pads as every other manufacturer does. Testing revealed these “comfort pads,” as Porsche calls them, to be unsatisfactory. (Just look at how they doomed a Nissan 370Z we lapped at our annual Lightning Lap track test a few years ago.) So, working with Bosch, Porsche homed in on the rotor instead."
Funny how after I swapped pads using the EXACT same oem rotors I now have zero dust. Same rotors, different pads. No dust. Pretty hard to argue with that.
 


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Thread Starter #32
Makes me wonder if Porsche is able to use a harder, possibly ceramic, dust-free pad matched with the tungsten carbide rotor facing, which is the real cause for reduced dust?
 


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Thread Starter #33
Also, has anyone tried Demon Performance's (street) pads AND rotors? I was looking at both, and so far it seems the rotors are harder and (possibly therefore) less heat-conductive.
 


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#34
Not entirely true.
Porsche specifically painted their brake calipers white to highlight how much cleaner the brakes are with tungsten carbide faced rotors.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...sche-cayennes-tungsten-carbide-coated-brakes/

From the article:
"Hard up for details on Porsche’s new Surface Coated Brakes, or PSCB for short? We visited with the company’s braking and chassis engineers in Germany for more information, and we can say this much: They’re more than just a new way for Porsche to empty your pockets of a few thousand bucks. Besides the brakes’ size and gleaming white-painted calipers, they feature iron rotors coated in a thin, ultra-hard layer of tungsten carbide. This gives them an edge in performance along with reduced wear and dust production over the 2019 Cayenne SUV’s standard-fitment iron rotors. Here’s how they work:
From Dust to (Less) Dust
Porsche’s pathological commitment to outbraking the competition with shorter stopping distances and minimal fade makes for a few minor annoyances, such as: Some Porsches’ brakes occasionally squeal and can give off lots of dust. While many Porsche customers gladly accept the trade-offs for maximum braking performance, some have been pining for the stopping power expected of a performance car with less noise and dust.
Porsche looked at using low-noise, low-dust brake pads as every other manufacturer does. Testing revealed these “comfort pads,” as Porsche calls them, to be unsatisfactory. (Just look at how they doomed a Nissan 370Z we lapped at our annual Lightning Lap track test a few years ago.) So, working with Bosch, Porsche homed in on the rotor instead."

Another case in point: the cleaner spray that turns iron compounds into purple goo that easily washes off that I am using: the brake pads contain no iron. There was a lot of purple goo to clean off of my brakes and wheels after I sprayed on the stuff that turns iron compounds purple.

But, the fantasy that brake dust does not come, at least partially, from actual rotor wear is just that, a fantasy. I know brake dust largely comes from the pads, but it does not come exclusively from the pads. I do believe it is possible to find a combination of a (non-Porsche) rotors and pads that produces less dust.

However, that is not to state that it will be easy to find.

About the rotor/pad combo that caught on fire: I wonder if those pads are bad at conducting heat, so the surface got far hotter. Combined with a rotor that also seemed to conduct heat more poorly, and you have a perfect storm (such as ceramic or carbon rotors.)
By the way, we all can cut and paste and post, my info is what you asked, with real life experience to back it up, sorry to disappoint.

What is "not entirely true"?

I said among other things regarding the Brembo set-up...
"On the street with normal driving, when cold most of the time, it does a nasty cold grinding job on the rotors, putting off dust from itself and also from the rotor it is wearing out prematurely."

Your welcome; from asking questions to this, you are much smarter now. We are not talking about Porsche rotors for your Hellcat. What do they cost? Can you get some for a Hellcat? Different animal from the weights to engineering and products. My story and reply stands for our products.

Those Porterfield pads were NOT rated at the higher temps that developed, (you can check the Porterfield and Hawk product charts) and/or not compatible materially with the DP rotors.

Rotors DO NOT conduct heat, they dissipate heat. In engineering speak, that is an important fundamental opposite to understand.
 


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Thread Starter #35
Rotors conduct heat from the friction surface into the rotor mass. This is why they have vents inside the rotor.
The heat that is CONDUCTED from the friction surface into the rotor mass and is then CONDUCTED to the air that is flowing through the rotor vents. Also, the pads conduct heat into the brake calipers and brake fluid.

They do not just radiate the heat, though that does happen, obviously, but a large portion of the heat is CONDUCTED away from the friction surface to the rotor mass, and then dissipated by the heat being CONDUCTED from that place through the rotor to the cooling airflow. Generally, the harder/stiffer a material, the worse it is at conducting heat, EXCEPT DIAMONDS, which are outstanding heat conductors, very strong, and would make ideal brake rotors, if one could make them cheaply enough. Diamond dust is used in computer thermal compound, to conduct heat from hot electronics to heat sinks, because it is not conductive of electricity, but very conductive of heat.

If CONDUCTION did not happen, ventilated rotors would be unnecessary.

The reduced heat conductivity of carbon-carbon* rotors is why the friction surfaces almost instantly jump to red-to-yellow hot upon application of the brakes in F1 cars, for example. a Hellcat, which weighs about four times as much, when coming down from a similar speed, does not make its rotor faces glow red-to-yellow hot, as happens in F1, because the heat is conducted more efficiently from the surface of the rotor by an iron rotor than by a rotor made of carbon fiber in a carbon matrix.

In fact, heat CONDUCTION is such a HUGE part of brake cooling that Porsche at one time experimented with brakes that had iron faces and copper alloy internals/vanes/hub mounts.

Also, what we call "radiators" are not "radiators" at all, primarily, they are actually conduction-based heat exchangers. In space, they would function entirely as radiators, because no heat conduction would occur between the radiator and a deep-space vacuum.

*Carbon-carbon rotors are built up in a furnace by exposing layers of carbon fiber cloth to a gas, methane, I believe, at high temperatures, and having the methane lose carbon atoms onto the surface of the carbon fiber, forming basically a fiber-reinforced matrix wherein the matrix, instead of being a thermoset resin like epoxy, is just more carbon, though more amorphous than the carbon fibers.
 


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#36
You need to understand the difference between conduction and radiation.
 


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Thread Starter #37
Give up on telling me what I do or do not need. Stick to the facts.

The FACT is that CONDUCTION is how the majority of the heat eventually leaves the brakes. The heat is conducted to the surrounding air.

You had an interesting first post in response, but then you spiraled off into rhetoric. Don't take facts that don't agree with your opinions personally.
 


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But it will sell. All of the above is irrelevant with that in mind.
Perfect! I have always wanted to be a basketball playing underwear model. Now, about that horizontal career move.... :p
 


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Thread Starter #39
Long response, sorry. Recap: if you are in the market for new rotors, the DP rotors are about the same cost as replacement Brembo rotors, they are lighter and more wear resistant. No difference in dust. Make your choice, but don't spend two more thousand!
Now, by definition, if the rotors are wearing less, they are putting off less of the part of the brake dust that is basically powdered rotors, which is what I was looking for, then wanting to combine that with pads that dust less, preferably without fading to nothing when you need them the most.
 


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Thread Starter #40
Came home, put in the Brembo pads for a few miles of cold grinding action!
Your detailed info on the Brembos being great at grinding brake rotors is now making me cringe when I apply the brakes.

What I am hoping to achieve is what I had with the carbon metallic brake pads I had on a car a long time ago: they get better as they heat up, but don't dust much. I have tried to find carbon metallics for the Brembos on the Hellcat, but, alas, I have not found them yet. It's quite a feeling of confidence to be coasting to a traffic light and the brakes are grabbing more as they heat up, with the same light pressure on the pedal.

So far, it looks as if the Demon Performance rotors are the best of the known quantities. I am avidly curious as to whether the Ceikos or whatever they are called are also good for wear. They are not compatible with the stock (and, to me, awesome) Brembo rotors, so I do not plan to use those rotors. Too bad. Ceiko could tap into a good market if they had direct-replacement rotors available, AND they were actually superior. IF.
 




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