Need advice on fighting the dreaded steering wheel vibration

[Jimmy N.]

Discount Tire recommended finding the wheel with the most weight on it and making sure it was on the rear.

That could hold true when balancers were still primitive.

In modern times you should put the ones with the least road force variation in the front. Actually, I'm still surprised how often the one with the most weights has the best road force numbers.

 

[AeroF16]

When I spoke to them on the phone, he told me 3 of the wheels road forced to like 15 (whatever units, lbs?) and other wheel was a bit higher, maybe in the low 20s.

He thought low 20s and below would be fine for a car, though I have no idea and there doesn't seem to be a standard.

Oddly enough, when I ordered the tires the store could only get 3 from the warehouse. Another Discount store about 25 minutes away had 1 tire in stock, so my local store sold me all 4 and I picked up the single tire from the not so local store. Now I'm being told 3 tires balanced pretty much the same and the 4th tire had higher road force values.

 

[BULL]

I did this for different reasons, but if you wanted to rule out the wheels, get an indicator on them an log some numbers.

Then compare worst with nominal.

 

[vortecd]

You could have them break the bead and spin the tire and rebalance the worst one until it is better. Start half a turn then a 1/4 if it is still not good

 

[Jimmy N.]

I did this for different reasons, but if you wanted to rule out the wheels, get an indicator on them an log some numbers.

You could have them break the bead and spin the tire and rebalance the worst one until it is better. Start half a turn then a 1/4 if it is still not good

Ironically, a Hunter machine will measure the rim run-out (if you just ask it to, in both planes and on both beads) and will tell you exactly how much to turn a tire on a wheel.

But again, it won't do it by itself. It takes a coherent operator.
Heck, even I know how to do it.

 

[AeroF16]

So Discount Tire is replacing two of my MPS4s tires because of how the vibration changed when I move the fronts to the rear.

So I let them balance my other set of rims (factory slingshots) that have the Pirelli All Seasons on them. Tires were new in May, probably have 2k miles on them. I put them on the car yesterday and they surprisingly ride much better than my MPS4s. Obviously they don't perform as well but they are smoother and much quieter, but it's possible some of that is due to having the heavier rims (slingshots) on as well.

The Pirelli/OEM Slingshot combo weighed in about 7 lbs heavier per wheel and tire than the Michellin/OEM 5 Spoke combo if I remember correctly.

However, the damn tires are not balanced well and vibrate pretty bad between 70-80mph.

I'm about to give up on this and just always drive slower or fast haha. These Pirellis have been balanced by Dodge, which wasn't great, so I took them to Firestone, which was better but still sucked, so then I took them to Discount Tire (which they balanced for free because I need to get the other wheels off my Hellcat so they can replace the tires).

Is Discount really screwing this up? They tell me they are being road forced and all getting to an absolute zero on the balancing but I find it hard to believe. Is it common for them to not remove the old weights before they start balancing? I pointed that out to them before they tried to balance the tires and, when I came back to pick them up, some of the old weights were still on there. I actually used to sling tires for Firestone when I was in college and I remember the first thing I did was remove the old weights.

Another thought - is it possible that these tires are getting flat spotted or something overnight? The only reason I bring this up is because I live in Phoenix and my garage probably never sees less than 100 degrees at night with the main door closed. It only has 1 small vent. The vibration is really bad for the first few miles of driving the car everyday to work in that 70-80mph range but then seems to get better, but not perfect. Oddly enough, my wife's new VW Atlas does the same thing. It did not do this for the first few thousand miles, then I took it to VW to have them balance the wheels and it did not get better. I have an appointment with Discount tire to get her car balanced on Friday.

 

[Heminized]

@AeroF16

This might sound crazy in the end (Skip there if the story bores you), but I had the exact same issues as you had. This all started when I got rid of the stock tires and ran Nitto 555r's. Before the Nitto's car rode smooth as glass. I did all the same painstaking tasks you described through discount tire. Road Force balance, swapping tire position, etc etc. Nothing seemed too matter. My vibration was in the steering wheel as well in my lower back. Drove me crazy.

So Discount tire gave me a partial credit on the tires after months of troubleshooting. I then went with PK Design HR5's and Continental Extreme's for tires. Guess what...still had the exact same freaking problem. I was seriously going to pull my hair out. I did all the same things as before road force balance, swap tire position, alignment, Lug torque...blah blah blah...no help. I was beyond frustrated and honestly contemplated selling the car.

So I already had Eibach Springs on the way so I figured can't hurt at this point. Lowered the car got another alignment and guess what? Still had the same f@cking issue!

So I slept on it a few nights. I had already picked everyone's brain possible, checked all forums and other sources for help...No answers...No Help...same crap! Arg!

So I thought to myself, what haven't I changed at this point? What has always been the same since I first encountered this issue?
Hmm, well stock when I bought the car with Perelli tires the air pressure was always high...38-40ish PSI. With the Nitto's I was advised run 32psi. Better grip, better launch, etc. etc. Sure why not.

Since then I had always ran 32psi faithfully. I thought, could it be that stupid? No way right? So that night went into the garage and pumped the Conti's all to 36 PSI and I have never had the issue since. Smooth as glass. Typically running at about 38-40ish PSI once warmed up.

Anyway, can't hurt to try dude...Air is free and it was night and day for my Cat...I still don't get it...but it is what it is.

 

[AeroF16]

I will try that this afternoon!

I am open to any ideas at this point. I always have them right at 32 psi cold because that is what the door jamb on the car says. My father actually delivered the car to me with the tires installed at a Dodge dealer (I purchased the vehicle out of state and it needed tires), he told me he doesn't recall any vibration in the wheel when he drove it, and he put probably 1200+ highway miles on it over the course of 2 trips getting it to me. I have no idea what the dealer had set for the tire air pressure.

First thing I did was swap the rims/tires out for my 5 spokes and Michelin tires, then set them at 32 psi. This is all summer time in Phoenix though, so if Dodge wants me to set 32psi cold, that would assume 70 deg F at standard temperature and pressure. My tires never see that, they only see 90+ and even hotter in a closed garage.

Anyone know what kind of temps tires actually end up getting to during normal daily driving? I've read an increase of up to 50 degs but not sure if that is linear or not.

I'm sure there is some formula or chart to figure this out. I can figure out how to correct my cold inflation temps for the 20+ degree deviation but I want to make sure I don't over correct and then have issues when they are at operating temps.

I can't believe I've typed all that over some stupid daily driven tires.

 

[AeroF16]

Just found this article from TireRack:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=73

My guess is that, though I am showing 32 psi cold, I am probably 2-3 psi under-inflated due to the high ambient temps. I will try setting 34 psi cold and see how that goes and report back.

 

[Jimmy N.]

I think I asked earlier in this thread if the tires had been sitting with weight on them and allowed to cool off before going on the balancer. Doesn't matter if that's at home or at the store, they will not be as round as they could be when balanced.

And why wouldn't the old weights stay on? If I get a reading indicating that the machine wants weight 180 degrees from an existing weight, and especially if it's also diagonally opposed, of course the old weight comes off instead of adding more to counter the old one.
But chances are that many, or most, of the old weights are in the right place...unless the prior balance wasn't done correctly. On flat spotted tires, for example.

 

[AeroF16]

I think I asked earlier in this thread if the tires had been sitting with weight on them and allowed to cool off before going on the balancer. Doesn't matter if that's at home or at the store, they will not be as round as they could be when balanced.

And why wouldn't the old weights stay on? If I get a reading indicating that the machine wants weight 180 degrees from an existing weight, and especially if it's also diagonally opposed, of course the old weight comes off instead of adding more to counter the old one.
But chances are that many, or most, of the old weights are in the right place...unless the prior balance wasn't done correctly. On flat spotted tires, for example.

They are only sitting under their own weight. Not sure how to cool them off unless I drop them off with Discount and let them sit over night, then ask them to balance them in the morning. Could work. Currently they sit in my garage and I drop them off with Discount, then pick them up the same day.

I assume the weights should come off because they were applied given the current physical characteristics of the tire at the time of balancing. If you go drive the tire a couple hundred miles and then bring it back, the shape of the tire has changed. Why would you leave old weight on? If that was the case you'd eventually just have a bunch of weights on the rim, right?

 

[Jimmy N.]

A few hundred miles of driving should not necessitate a rebalance.
They should be laying on their side when stored, once mounted.

Yes, I like to mount tires and let them lay in the garage until the next day, letting the pressure do its best to get any deformations out of the tire. Ideally they should be driven on, reaching operating temperature, then quickly removed and balanced.

Again, I would leave old weights on because chances are good that they are in the correct spot. If they're not, then they get removed and new ones applied as needed. But I won't know that until having spun them on the balancer.
Otherwise it'd be a bit like draining the coolant, or brake fluid, then test it to find out if it needed to be changed.

You can always tell a not great balancing job by seeing weights applied 180 degrees apart, or a small one a few inches from a larger one.
That doesn't mean the tire isn't balanced to perfection, it could be, but the operator wasn't thinking, and/or that the machine wasn't calibrated correctly.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

I did this for different reasons, but if you wanted to rule out the wheels, get an indicator on them an log some numbers.

Then compare worst with nominal.

I’ve done this often. Indicate the rim, indicate the tire, move the high spot on the tire to the low spot on the rim. Once this done then index the tire/rim combo around on the studs and find the index that has the least run out on the tires center thread area. Then mark the stud to the hole in the rim. I use 4 different color paint markers so I know which rim goes with which location. Sounds extreme but it produces fruits. I run at high speeds often, 150+ most runs 180+ at times. I don’t do this unless i have a vibration issue that multiple re-balancing hasn’t solved. It works.

 

[Jimmy N.]

I’ve done this often. Indicate the rim, indicate the tire, move the high spot on the tire to the low spot on the rim.

That is what a Hunter Road Force machine does, if asked to.
I like your idea, but trust the machine more as it also takes into account the softer sections of the sidewalls, and balances accordingly.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

That is what a Hunter Road Force machine does, if asked to.
I like your idea, but trust the machine more as it also takes into account the softer sections of the sidewalls, and balances accordingly.

I’d rather the machine do it!! Tough part is finding a operator that knows how to do it, let alone be good at it and know what their doing to where you feel like you can rest assured any vibration afterwards it’s not the wheel and tire. Hell, I have a hard enough time getting them to understand why I want them after the final balance spin to just loosen the hub lock and rotate the wheel and then spin it one more time for me, to which it should show balanced every time if it was on center and done correctly the first time around correct?

 

[Jimmy N.]

Yep, I usually move the wheel at least once to make sure it was centered perfectly. Doesn't take but 30 seconds extra, and can be well worth it.

Of course, having the tire correctly balanced is only part of the equation. Having the back side of the wheel and the corresponding contact surface on the vehicle clean is also important. Doesn't take much run-out that close to the center to make a difference out by the tread.

Also, even with a good fitting hub centric wheel, it's important to torque the lug nuts down correctly and in sequence.

I wish I could help you with finding a good operator. Your best bet may be to read up on the process (which it sounds like you already know) and then bribe the operator to follow your instructions.
I'm surprised how often a shop doesn't know what their machine is capable of.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

You hit the nail on the head, bribery is what I‘m forced to use lol

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Yep, I usually move the wheel at least once to make sure it was centered perfectly. Doesn't take but 30 seconds extra, and can be well worth it.

Of course, having the tire correctly balanced is only part of the equation. Having the back side of the wheel and the corresponding contact surface on the vehicle clean is also important. Doesn't take much run-out that close to the center to make a difference out by the tread.

Also, even with a good fitting hub centric wheel, it's important to torque the lug nuts down correctly and in sequence.

I wish I could help you with finding a good operator. Your best bet may be to read up on the process (which it sounds like you already know) and then bribe the operator to follow your instructions.
I'm surprised how often a shop doesn't know what their machine is capable of.

I agree totally. When I take performance tires in for mounting their usually never on the car. I strip them of all weights (except my track rims which the rim alone is balanced with black weights then the tire is added and any additional weight needed a silver or white color one is used, if tire spins on the rim I move the white weight along with it) and clean the barrel of the rims thoroughly of any tar specs and brake dust and wire wheel the hubs. Tire changing guys usually love it as they don’t even get their hands dirty on my stuff. Same is done to the hubs on the vehicle. Unfortunately the Hellcat rear hub pilots hold water from the car wash and are always a rusty mess.

 

[Jimmy N.]

There's another option, seldom used these days. Patch balancing the tire.

Not that I know how those would get along with a track tire, but I've used them on my Jeep tires with success, and I run those down to 1 psi, and over rocks.

Two advantages are that the Hunter machines are (or used to be) set up for patch balancing, another is that it won't matter if you spin the tire on the wheel since in your case they'd be balanced separately.

 

[AeroF16]

Yep, I usually move the wheel at least once to make sure it was centered perfectly. Doesn't take but 30 seconds extra, and can be well worth it.

Of course, having the tire correctly balanced is only part of the equation. Having the back side of the wheel and the corresponding contact surface on the vehicle clean is also important. Doesn't take much run-out that close to the center to make a difference out by the tread.

Also, even with a good fitting hub centric wheel, it's important to torque the lug nuts down correctly and in sequence.

I wish I could help you with finding a good operator. Your best bet may be to read up on the process (which it sounds like you already know) and then bribe the operator to follow your instructions.
I'm surprised how often a shop doesn't know what their machine is capable of.

I think I need to find a smaller, local tire shop that I can build a relationship with.

Wheels are definitely being torqued back on the car properly by myself.

I cleaned the hubs up very well when I replaced the rotors a few months ago. I've thought about pulling the rotors off and double checking just to make sure I didn't miss anything but I am pretty confident that's not the issue. Back of both sets of rims look nice and clean.