Traction / Stability Control

[Decay]

Back to street shenanigans...

But maybe NEXT weekend.

In the meanwhile I'll try not to lick my fingers.

 

[stonewall]

TC OFF 392 M6

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Nice!!

 

[Old Mopar Guy]

Love that vid!

 

[NotSoStealthy]

There is ONE thing that you cannot "turn off" that affects the power output the engine has. Yes, if the traction/stability if full off /disabled you can go hog wild doing donuts with a wheel speed of 130 MPH etc. But you cannot be over revving and you cannot be approaching the rev limiter with the engine accelerating real fast. The rev limiter is predictive and looks at the rate of acceleration and will do 2 things to control RPM. #1 Pull Power, and #2 force upshifts. If the rate of engine acceleration is real fast the Rev limiter will try and get ahead of it. It will not let you actually get to the rev limit. Also if the Transmission is upshifting then the engine will pull power during the shifts. Maybe the difference in these 2 situations you describe is a difference in the traction available or a difference in the way you are applying the throttle. Here is a good example in my Demon. That car would annialate the tires in the right circumstances. Layed some really good stipes once in default with a conservative application of the throttle. But one time I was getting home and there were some Guys hanging out so I thought I would show off a little for them. I know I was in default but it still will spin the tires and leave marks in default. But this time it was wet and there were leaves and I was on concrete. I stabbed it to the floor and I had absolutely NOTHING. Just a stupid flutter. Well, it was like being on ice and you can bet the rate of acceleration of the back tires, the engine RPM etc were enormous.

This is the reason the car will many times force upshifts even if you have the shifter in manual.

The one situation you talked about cycling the ignition. That will put you back in default everything.

Also if the car is forcing upshifts in a low traction approaching over rev situation it may be doing one shift and if that is not enough doing one more and so on and that can give the impression that it is cutting power, and it is, because it is shifting. So if it is doing multiple upshifts it can seem like it is totally shutting down the show but rest assured if you left the throttle down long enough it will probably EVENTUALLY get with the program. I bet when it does this you end up just letting off. I would.

I thought you were onto something here... Between crap weather and life throwing lemons, I just started getting back in the car after putting it away for the season last September/October. Yesterday I experimented with some of my previously explained events. One road (the road I turn into to get home) that I used to slide or drift around with my Viper where the road is a little choppy, or slightly bumpy pavement, is still giving me issues. The reason I use this same spot as my testing ground is because it is local to me and is in the country side with no traffic. Don't worry I'm not an a$$hole doing this on a public way in traffic. Anyhow, I put my car into manual mode yesterday. I came into this corner in 2nd gear and as soon as I started to drift out sideways and the car picked up on the less than perfectly smooth pavement, the car began to cut power as the stability control started kicking in. I was in my custom mode set up and I also held the traction button down for 5 or 6 seconds so that the screen read stability control was off. I was not over revving or bouncing off of the rev limiter, although this car doesn't "bounce" off of a rev limiter like my Viper's would, more so just flattens off if I do max out the rpm's, which is never as I rarely use manual mode. Sincerely, completely stumped.

 

[DRAGRCR]

I thought you were onto something here... Between crap weather and life throwing lemons, I just started getting back in the car after putting it away for the season last September/October. Yesterday I experimented with some of my previously explained events. One road (the road I turn into to get home) that I used to slide or drift around with my Viper where the road is a little choppy, or slightly bumpy pavement, is still giving me issues. The reason I use this same spot as my testing ground is because it is local to me and is in the country side with no traffic. Don't worry I'm not an a$$hole doing this on a public way in traffic. Anyhow, I put my car into manual mode yesterday. I came into this corner in 2nd gear and as soon as I started to drift out sideways and the car picked up on the less than perfectly smooth pavement, the car began to cut power as the stability control started kicking in. I was in my custom mode set up and I also held the traction button down for 5 or 6 seconds so that the screen read stability control was off. I was not over revving or bouncing off of the rev limiter, although this car doesn't "bounce" off of a rev limiter like my Viper's would, more so just flattens off if I do max out the rpm's, which is never as I rarely use manual mode. Sincerely, completely stumped.

You are not going to overrev because the car won't let you. But if you hit wavy or bumpy pavement while you are on it, I suspect the rpm is spiking and as I said you do not have to be over the RPM limit to cut power. If the rpm is 2000 below the limit, but spiking, I think it would be normal for it to cut power. If you think about it, this could be bad for the drivetrain and could be a version of the Launch Assist feature in the Demon. I bet if you had a really good trend or data log with high resolution it would be an "aha" moment" for you.

 

[NotSoStealthy]

You are not going to overrev because the car won't let you. But if you hit wavy or bumpy pavement while you are on it, I suspect the rpm is spiking and as I said you do not have to be over the RPM limit to cut power. If the rpm is 2000 below the limit, but spiking, I think it would be normal for it to cut power. If you think about it, this could be bad for the drivetrain and could be a version of the Launch Assist feature in the Demon. I bet if you had a really good trend or data log with high resolution it would be an "aha" moment" for you.

So how do people drift these cars? I am quite confident to say that my rpm's were not spiking rapidly, yes increasing but not spiking as you say. If I'm going in a straight line and mash the throttle from a dig or slow roll (5-10mph) the car screams and melts the tires off while going through gears, it has zero governing when this happens! It's like my car has an overly active stability control feature, even when full "off", which is super annoying. I didn't spend $85K on a car to not enjoy it the way I want. Apparently I am just use to older cars like my Viper's that did not have any of these shenanigans.

 

[DRAGRCR]

So how do people drift these cars? I am quite confident to say that my rpm's were not spiking rapidly, yes increasing but not spiking as you say. If I'm going in a straight line and mash the throttle from a dig or slow roll (5-10mph) the car screams and melts the tires off while going through gears, it has zero governing when this happens! It's like my car has an overly active stability control feature, even when full "off", which is super annoying. I didn't spend $85K on a car to not enjoy it the way I want. Apparently I am just use to older cars like my Viper's that did not have any of these shenanigans.

Another good example is in my Ram. I am coming off the freeway on a downhill ramp kind of hard on the brakes and there is a bump where the concrete transitions to asphalt. When the truck hits this the anti lock brakes start pusling and going crazy.

I honestly think your car is doing what it is supposed to. So you can go to an aftermarket engine control and transmission control and then you have no warranty or you can keep what you have. At this point I am going to say what you are doing is abuse. Especially if you keep doing it over and over. 700 HP power on over unsmooth surface can break shit. I would NEVER spin the tires hard over a less than smooth/perfect surface with one of these cars.

I think you are going to find that most surfaces they drift on are smooth. And if they are not smooth surfaces they are using dedicated race cars that don't have OEM electronics or drivetrain parts anymore. If YOU were doing this on a smooth surface I think your car would drift just fine. Also it may be just the exact dynamics your car is encountering. So, if you were really boiling the tires ( much bigger difference between wheel speed and road speed) before you hit the bumps then it would act different.

 

[2fast4u]

Interesting...I have just the opposite I am working thru. Working on suspension to get better launch with NO spin is the goal, "SPINNING AIN'T WINNING". Hell, I have spun the tires at 70+ getting into CAVEMAN throttling, pretty scary when you go sideways and have to gather it up! Thank the Lord that no one else was on the road...could have been REALLY bad.

 

[NotSoStealthy]

Another good example is in my Ram. I am coming off the freeway on a downhill ramp kind of hard on the brakes and there is a bump where the concrete transitions to asphalt. When the truck hits this the anti lock brakes start pusling and going crazy.

I honestly think your car is doing what it is supposed to. So you can go to an aftermarket engine control and transmission control and then you have no warranty or you can keep what you have. At this point I am going to say what you are doing is abuse. Especially if you keep doing it over and over. 700 HP power on over unsmooth surface can break shit. I would NEVER spin the tires hard over a less than smooth/perfect surface with one of these cars.

I think you are going to find that most surfaces they drift on are smooth. And if they are not smooth surfaces they are using dedicated race cars that don't have OEM electronics or drivetrain parts anymore. If YOU were doing this on a smooth surface I think your car would drift just fine. Also it may be just the exact dynamics your car is encountering. So, if you were really boiling the tires ( much bigger difference between wheel speed and road speed) before you hit the bumps then it would act different.

I understand your points and also agree with almost everything you said but I think it is far from abusive. In my description I may have overly exaggerated the choppiness of the road to emphasize my point. While the road is admittedly less than perfect or smooth, it is not extremely choppy. It's not like I'm getting a wheel-hop feeling. I just think it's crazy that a car with 797HP can't even slide around a corner spiritedly, not abusively. I guess I'll conclude my search for any further explanation, at this point I am convinced that it is an overly active stability control. If it was something to do with the rpm's spiking too quickly then I believe your theory of smooth pavement would be irrelevant. Just my .02

 

[DRAGRCR]

I understand your points and also agree with almost everything you said but I think it is far from abusive. In my description I may have overly exaggerated the choppiness of the road to emphasize my point. While the road is admittedly less than perfect or smooth, it is not extremely choppy. It's not like I'm getting a wheel-hop feeling. I just think it's crazy that a car with 797HP can't even slide around a corner spiritedly, not abusively. I guess I'll conclude my search for any further explanation, at this point I am convinced that it is an overly active stability control. If it was something to do with the rpm's spiking too quickly then I believe your theory of smooth pavement would be irrelevant. Just my .02

I too kind of agree with you now that you described this better. I will ask this : How do you know the road is not smooth? Did you get out and feel it with your hand? Or do you feel it as you peel acrost it trying to slide? Just think the car fees this way better than you do.

I will agree that if you fully defeat the Stability control you SHOULD be able to do figure 8's with the throttle pinned wide open on the Rev limiter.

Let me ask this. Do you fully defeat the stability control and THEN put it in custom mode? In that case I bet the stability/traction mode is changing. What you describe to me is that the car is not full defeated and is in sport mode. I am not 100% sure but I think you should have 2 lights on in the dash.
I think you should try it again and be sure what mode you are in.

If I were doing this I would either do it in default, pressing the stability control button once and release. Verify one light, then press and hold until the chime and notification in the dash fully off and then have my fun. OR : I would go to sport mode which will put stability/traction in sport and then press and hold until fully defeated.

 

[NotSoStealthy]

I too kind of agree with you now that you described this better. I will ask this : How do you know the road is not smooth? Did you get out and feel it with your hand? Or do you feel it as you peel acrost it trying to slide? Just think the car fees this way better than you do.

I will agree that if you fully defeat the Stability control you SHOULD be able to do figure 8's with the throttle pinned wide open on the Rev limiter.

Let me ask this. Do you fully defeat the stability control and THEN put it in custom mode? In that case I bet the stability/traction mode is changing. What you describe to me is that the car is not full defeated and is in sport mode. I am not 100% sure but I think you should have 2 lights on in the dash.
I think you should try it again and be sure what mode you are in.

If I were doing this I would either do it in default, pressing the stability control button once and release. Verify one light, then press and hold until the chime and notification in the dash fully off and then have my fun. OR : I would go to sport mode which will put stability/traction in sport and then press and hold until fully defeated.

The road surface is pavement, but the pavement is likely 10+ years old (I've lived here for 6 years and it looked aged when I bought my house). I should say it might be a little wavy from New England winters/frost more so than choppy. I am in my custom mode when this happens with traction in Sport and transmission in Track, which the Sport mode for traction is what is called "off". I then hold the traction button down for an additional 5 to 6 seconds until it displays "Stability Control Off" in the screen behind my steering wheel as well as shows me traction "Off" on my radio display screen. At this point you would assume it should be off.

 

[NotSoStealthy]

So, the plot thickens.... I have now recognized that there is a certain travel speed that plays a role here, seemingly. If I am taking off from a dig, or traveling slowly such as 5 mph, it does not seem to have the same stability interference as it does if I'm going around a corner at say 15 to 20 mph. I wish someone with definitive knowledge could inform if there is something that further activates stability control at or within certain mph ranges.

 

[TNREDEYE]

Fwiw - I don't often call on mine at anything much under 50 when it's got the 315/35/50 Nitto 'ride around' tires on it. After reading some of this thread I decided yesterday to play w it a bit and see how it acts when trying to spin the tires in any sort of a controllable way. I made sure the light was on on the dash and that I'd held the button down until hearing the ding. It *should* have been set to just kill the tires. Nope. Nope. Nope. It won't even consider it. No matter how easy I was on the throttle(trying to slowly run the rpms up so as not to bang the rev limiter) almost immediately after it started to spin the tires hard it would cut the power hard and shift gears, effectively sticking the tires back to the ground.

I'm not really a slide the car around the corner type of driver to begin with so it's not really an issue for me but if I was I think I'd be really frustrated by the way it reacts to intentional tire spin.

 

[NotSoStealthy]

Fwiw - I don't often call on mine at anything much under 50 when it's got the 315/30/50 Nitto 'ride around' tires on it. After reading some of this thread I decided yesterday to play w it a bit and see how it acts when trying to spin the tires in any sort of a controllable way. I made sure the light was on on the dash and that I'd held the button down until hearing the ding. It *should* have been set to just kill the tires. Nope. Nope. Nope. It won't even consider it. No matter how easy I was on the throttle(trying to slowly run the rpms up so as not to bang the rev limiter) almost immediately after it started to spin the tires hard it would cut the power hard and shift gears, effectively sticking the tires back to the ground.

I'm not really a slide the car around the corner type of driver to begin with so it's not really an issue for me but if I was I think I'd be really frustrated by the way it reacts to intentional tire spin.

Thank you for chiming in. I've been saying to my fiance lately that I wish I could ride in someone else's Redeye to see if theirs is the same as mine. I know for a fact that this is not related to over revving or spiking rpm's too quickly. It is 100% stability control related even when the system is fully deactivated (which is pure B.S.). As mentioned if I mash the gas from a stop and blow it sideways it is fine and will continue to spin without interference, but if I'm already traveling 15 mph and try to drift it out it cuts power until it stops spinning and then reapplies the power, this all happens in the matter of a second or two. I don't like my car governing me over what I am trying to do. This is like all the young kids these days driving cars that basically drive themselves... They will never know how to handle an "oh shit" moment if it ever came to it. I learned how to drive back in the 80's before I even had my license. I'd take whatever old piece of crap car I could convince my father to let me drive and raise Hell with it out behind my old man's house. I was drifting cars and trucks around when I was 12 years old. Best way to learn in my opinion. Now I'm 42 years old, spent $85K on a car, and I can't even drive it the way I want. Yeah.......

 

[DRAGRCR]

Thank you for chiming in. I've been saying to my fiance lately that I wish I could ride in someone else's Redeye to see if theirs is the same as mine. I know for a fact that this is not related to over revving or spiking rpm's too quickly. It is 100% stability control related even when the system is fully deactivated (which is pure B.S.). As mentioned if I mash the gas from a stop and blow it sideways it is fine and will continue to spin without interference, but if I'm already traveling 15 mph and try to drift it out it cuts power until it stops spinning and then reapplies the power, this all happens in the matter of a second or two. I don't like my car governing me over what I am trying to do. This is like all the young kids these days driving cars that basically drive themselves... They will never know how to handle an "oh shit" moment if it ever came to it. I learned how to drive back in the 80's before I even had my license. I'd take whatever old piece of crap car I could convince my father to let me drive and raise Hell with it out behind my old man's house. I was drifting cars and trucks around when I was 12 years old. Best way to learn in my opinion. Now I'm 42 years old, spent $85K on a car, and I can't even drive it the way I want. Yeah.......

If your attitude is you own it and you should be able to do whatever you want with it (I sort of agree with you) then you should talk to someone that tunes these cars. I think if they reduce the torque management to zero this will stop happening. They might even be able to set it per each drive mode, so you could keep in default, but not certain. Of course the stability control, rev limiter etc. will no longer work and you will lose the warranty. If you want to keep those features you pretty much have to play by FCA rules.

 

[sgilbert74]

If your attitude is you own it and can should be able to do whatever you want with it (I sort of agree with you) then you should talk to someone that tunes these cars. I think if they reduce the torque management to zero this will stop happening. They might even be able to set it per each drive mode, so you could keep in default, but not certain. Of course the stability control, rev limiter etc. will no longer work and you will lose the warranty. If you want to keep those features you pretty much have to play by FCA rules.

 

[sgilbert74]

Hi I just got a 2020 redeye wb. I am having the same exact thing going on wirh my car. I did a google search and found your post. Did you ever get to the bottom of it?