DRAGRCR SRT SUPER STOCK

[vortecd]

As you know there will always be people that say others cheat. I knew most of the NMRA Renegade racers around 2000. I did a few event and went to some others when the car was down just to hang out. My car was 95% street 5% track where a lot of the cars were 95% track and 5% street. It was interesting to listen to people talk about the faster guys must be cheating. It really took me back at the time. I was there to have fun and meet people but there was a lot of negativity going on. My car was never on a dyno then and I didn't datalog the runs. I put together a good combo with off the shelve parts that worked good together. I even qualified 4th out of a 16 or so car field at one event. Knowing what I know now how the car performed later and had my combo tuned I probably would have been the number 1 qualifier that race. I had the only AOD trans in the class that took more power and ran a full exhaust and interior. So when I heard the talk knowing I wasn't getting everything out of my combo at the time that some people are going to think others are cheating since they are faster I knew they could easily be faster and were not cheating

You know car 550 was faster last weekend and you know why, weight. That guy that has never raced a Demon goes to the track stock and runs 9.90 is going to think you are cheating cause he couldn't run even close to you. And the other guy that does know something about racing and runs 9.70 is also going to think you are cheating cause he also has light wheels and different tires but couldn't match your times. You can't let other people get under your skin because they have not had the success as you have. You have taken 2 different Demons into the 9.5's because of testing and hard work so don't let anyone take that away from you

 

[Mike Jesse]

Don't worry about it Ron. Jealousy is a MFer.
You have put the time in to make the car run it's best AND help others so hold your head up high.

 

[Mean Cat]

Your faster than me Ron, so I know your cheating

 

[Speedy!]

In my experience a lot of the Demon crowd take this stuff way too serious. Lined up with a guy in a Demon and you could tell he thought he was just gonna roll in and dominate, at least that was the impression we got from him. Car ran 10.30s at around 133mph like they all do around here. He even left and went somewhere and had different tires mounted and came back. Didn't seem to know much about the car at all in terms of how to set it up etc. Dodge putting out a 9.65 time marketing gave folks the impression that was a given I guess. No one considers it took a team of engineers and a pro driver in -1400 DA to get there, and no telling what all they had to do with sensor data etc. Ron running 9.5x is pretty phenomenal when you think about that.

Whatever happened to the gal in the destroyer gray Demon that used to chase times? I haven't seen her in a while. She'd show up to Beech Bend chasing weather and was pretty cool to hang out with.

 

[DRAGRCR]

In my experience a lot of the Demon crowd take this stuff way too serious. Lined up with a guy in a Demon and you could tell he thought he was just gonna roll in and dominate, at least that was the impression we got from him. Car ran 10.30s at around 133mph like they all do around here. He even left and went somewhere and had different tires mounted and came back. Didn't seem to know much about the car at all in terms of how to set it up etc. Dodge putting out a 9.65 time marketing gave folks the impression that was a given I guess. No one considers it took a team of engineers and a pro driver in -1400 DA to get there, and no telling what all they had to do with sensor data etc. Ron running 9.5x is pretty phenomenal when you think about that.

Whatever happened to the gal in the destroyer gray Demon that used to chase times? I haven't seen her in a while. She'd show up to Beech Bend chasing weather and was pretty cool to hang out with.

You are talking about Catherine Kosiba, always with her Husband Brad. She was there. She finally made me proud and put the car back together. I leaned inside the Pass side of the car and talked to her for a while. Interior looks brand new. Of course the car is slower. But I heard she got a 9.64 with just the front Pass Seat out of it. Still impressive. She is an EXCELLENT driver. Uses the Launch Control all the time and it never flakes. On me it always does about every 6th time. She aparently has not learned any bad habbits like me. I think it's because I guard the gas pedal and you need to be at zero before stomping it. With the weight out of it, that car was knocking down consecutive 1.32 sixty foots coming off the LC with the good conditions. Also amazing if you think about it.

The do raod racing and other things. Also the reason I think they put the Demon back together is because they just bought a 2021 Drag Pack and will be racing that. I can't wait to see that one run. Those cars are so Bitchen!

 

[Speedy!]

Glad to hear they're still out enjoying the Demon.

 

[TNREDEYE]

MISC RAMBLINGS:


What got me going is something that was posted on another forum by a Friend of mine. And an article by a journalist that has several factual errors. And I might be wrong because I am ASSUMING that I am the one being referred to.

I don't like claiming records. Because, how can you possibly KNOW if someone out there has a better time or not? So any claim should ALWAYS be preceded by "as far as we know". I also do not like the ET/Time lists that are being generated. I find them useful because I can see where I am as far as performance. But they have their flaws. Cars on there claiming Stock that have aftermarket intakes and others that have performed the CaddyHack treatment. I agree with my one good Friend. I have to use NHRA STOCK as a benchmark. They DO NOT allow cars without door panels and carpet etc. They also have a minimum weight that I think is a shipping weight of a based stripped Model? Not sure. But those cars are on the list none the less.........

As many of you know I sold my first Demon because of some of this and the fact that the car had the shift hiccups. Then I got a RedEye. Some people on Facebook and in here gave me a lot of crap about that car and hurt my feelings. But the fact is the folks at FCA were aware of my VIN and the fact that I was going to race that car. So, I think it had a particularly strong engine. Pair that with the weight reduction I did and the Factory 3.09 gears and the car just could not complete the 1-2 shift on time. More like it was not even close to getting it done on time. Huge Hiccup where it crashed into the REV Limiter, literally closed the throttle all the way, completed the shift and then gave it all back. I actually think if it had worked right, it likely would have been a unicorn and been faster than my Super Stock. It ran 107 and 108 at Irwindale in +1800 DA and that was WITH that massive hiccup. Think about that for a second. I was in the process of preparing to get some help adjusting the Transmission calibration to fix that car when they announced the Super Stock. I had the HpTuners Tool and even had a new unlocked PCM as well. I actually sent that PCM back to HpTuners and had it re-initialized to use in the Super Stock. But it just sat, because I never got around to installing it because I was not ready to tune the engine Calibration yet.

OK, on FaceBook there is ONE particular asshole that always says some crap about me. And this ties into the record claims. So, I am going to tell you what was going on and how I feel about it. I got one of the first Super Stocks and I went straight to the track. So just about every time slip could likely be a record. But I am not running around Yelling RECORD RECORD RECORD! I was asked for my time slips and put on lists. That car hauled ass. But there were times it would hiccup. And it took me a WHILE to figure out what all was going on with the car. So I had it at Brian Masons track rental and low DA etc. Someone published an article on my Car using times from that event. First Super Stock to run 9's etc. I did not help with that article or endorse it etc. The info was likely grabbed from my Thread on here and I think one time he asked me something casually in a thread on Facebook, but DID NOT mention he was doing an article. Maybe. I cannot remember for sure. That time was 9.956.

So, at the Legion of Demons event the next weekend I went a little faster. But no new article. The car had hiccups. It was frustrating because FCA said this car would work better for what I was doing and I cannot keep buying car after car. Right? I had the HpTuners and they did not have support for the TCM Adaptives but they DID have it for the PCM. I thought maybe they were grouped together so I reset them. Wow, the car made a few good passes. But then the Hiccups returned. I reset the adaptives and a few good passes. But it still would not follow a perfect pattern but the pattern was there. I was told by Curt that when I reset the adaptives the engine made LESS power and that is what fixed the Hiccups temporarily. When the fuel trims came in the power would return along with the Hiccups. I actually had a Hiccup on the 1-2 (rev limit) and the 2-3 (transmission protection). So, with the DA and the weight reduction the car was getting outside the factory calibration and that was causing a MALFUNCTION. So, at the end of that day, Curt was helping me REPAIR the Problem/Malfunction. So, some want to say I was doing a Trans Tune. But it was not in the sense or designed to make the car any faster per se. I just wanted to do what was necessary to eliminate the hiccups and let the car run as fast as it could, stock. If the fuel trims were leveled out and the car did not hiccup, I felt the car could have had a high 9.80 in it during some of the best DA. Also note: the PCM was never unlocked. So, I had to be extra careful to not brick the PCM. One person that trashed some of my threads, and was really mean to me, did point out that you can tune the TCM and not have the PCM unlocked. The TCM’s are not locked. So that was one GOOD thing that came out of him coming in there like a wrecking ball. Unfortunately, that will never happen again.

Our first small change was to increase the shift pressure. The DA was dropping because the sun was just going down and they had just done a full prep of the track. So, the track was on point and the DA was getting better. The car ran 9.94 and then a 9.90. Good DA and NO Hiccups. In fact the shifts would be at a LOWER RPM because of the harder shift it will complete faster/sooner and pull the motor down away from the rev limiter. But it was spinning the slicks on the shifts and that is not really the fastest way down the race track. Every Tuner knows that and a performance tune would not be set up that way and would likely be combined with an unlocked PCM so you could raise rev limits and shift at a higher RPM. So, if you want to say I tuned my Trans and that is how I got the 9.90, that is fine. Did the change we made make the car faster. Hell yes it did, because it finally allowed the car to work right. But was it intended as a performance tune or modification. No.

So you can take my 9.90 off the list if you want. But I DID run 9.953 without any changes to the TCM and with the PCM adaptives reset to reduce power. So, completely stock PCM and TCM Calibrations. And this IS faster than this latest claimed record.

If the references in this latest article were aimed at me then I am going to call out. It was said that there were fewer changes from stock than the other car. Let’s list the changes from stock of the 2 cars please. Be honest.

It's convenient for me that you brought up the whole shifting issue and what you did to try and deal with it. I hope you don't mind, I'm going to borrow some of this post and move it over to the SS tech thread because this is a general issue that I think needs discussing among those of us that actually race these things.

 

[Boris]

Race your car and don't worry about lazy journalism.

I find a few of these car sites just pull stuff off of a forum to make a story. Get paid for clicks and everyone needs to eat.

I have found the entitlement of the Demon crowd has not gone away. But the NHRA did "unban" them so maybe more will show up at the track than the auction house??

 

[DRAGRCR]

OK, I inadvertantly started a rucus on the other site. I did not bad mouth anybody, but you would think I did.

Because of that I have been doing a LOT of homework. So I am going slather (bore) you guys with another long post tomorrow or the next day with Super Stock stuff. We are going to have crappy weather so what better to do with my time indoors.............

 

[vortecd]

OK, I inadvertantly started a rucus on the other site. I did not bad mouth anybody, but you would think I did.

Because of that I have been doing a LOT of homework. So I am going slather (bore) you guys with another long post tomorrow or the next day with Super Stock stuff. We are going to have crappy weather so what better to do with my time indoors.............

you need to stop posting in the hood

 

[DRAGRCR]

OK here are details about what was happening to my Super Stock. It would hiccup on the 2-3 shifts due to slipping and sometimes in good DA it would hiccup on the 1-2 and the 2-3 due to hitting the rev limiter. Super Frustrating to say the least.

Since I took the heat by some relentless fellows for tuning my TCM, I asked 4 Tuners the following question. The tuner that I was working with responded and the tuner that I would use in the future responded. The other two I never heard back. How perfect.

"My 2020 Super Stock totally stock Tuning and in +1000 foot DA would many times bark the slicks on the 1-2 shift and would make great pass after great pass with no issues. These cars are programmed for a 6400 RPM shift and I am not sure if they raised the REV Limit on the Engine so they likely have less head room. I assume that is why the 1-2 shift is so firm, shifting just in time.

So, WITHOUT unlocking the PCM, and doing a TCM only tune where you can change anything you want on the TCM side, how much, if any, do you think you can improve the ET/Speed?".


The one I was working with said "Honestly, there probably isn't a ton to gain. We can speed the shifts up slightly but there is only so much there. The stock engine rev limiter is 6500 so we can't really shift them any later. That's where most of the gains would be found. "

The one I would use now said "Would be hard for me to say if there's significant opportunities but based on just what you're saying below. In terms of shift points, probably not. Maybe shift behavior/quality but I'd imagine the factory tune up at stock power is probably about as good as it gets so long as it's not cutting fuel for tq management."

So basically tuning the TCM with a Locked PCM isn't going to help. Unless you are fixing a malfunction that Stellantis won't. You cannot performance tune a TCM unless the PCM is unlocked. Period.

So in higher DA the transmission could not complete the 2-3 shift on time when loaded heavy. This is with the 30" tall rear tires, and after adding 100 pounds of balast and at 1500 DA ish. You can see that the shift is commanded and has started pulling down the RPM and then after the fact it clips the throttle to help the shift complete. Plain as day.
The RPM had peaked at 6343, well below the rev limit and was already down to 5661 and then the throttle closed.

This is a double Hiccup in good DA at the Legions event. It hit the rev limit on the 1-2 and the 2-3. It hit 6469 rpm on the 1-2 and closet the throttle and on the 2-3 it hit 6524 rpm and closed the throttle. When the car does this it's an easy tenth slower if not more.



OK at the end of the day I finally got my first revision of the TCM Calibration to try. I am pretty sure he told me he raised the pressure on the 1-2 and the 2-3 shifts, where it had the hiccups. This actually LOWERED the shift RPM's to the indicated RPM where the cursor is lined up and on the 2-3 it peaked at 6205 RPM. And the car set a Personal best at 9.944 because the fuel trims were coming in, therefore the power was increasing (also because the DA was improving) and it did NOT hiccup. I was extatic.


Just to review. I had been resetting the PCM adaptives with HPTuners in the period before I had anything to try as far as tuning the TCM. After doing that the car would make a couple good passes and then it would begin to hiccup as the fuel trims came in and it started making more power causing the hiccups to come back. So, after doing the 9.944 above I came right back and did a 9.908, because the fuel trims were likely fully adjusted and the DA was -500 or so. This was the 6th pass since I reset the adaptives. It also shifted a little higher telling me that it was making more power (part of that was likely because of hot lapping). But NO hiccup.

So, I reset the adaptives 6 passes earlier. With the adaptives reset the first pass was a 9.953. Then it went 10.00 and 10.01 all within a few minutes. In this case hot lapping screwed me because of the added power it hiccuped real bad. So frustrating. Do all you can to have a fast car and the only way it will make a good pass is with shackles.

So, that 9.953 is likely STILL a pure stock record. But you never know. Maybe someone went faster. And the 9.908 was possibly a record if/when the car would work right. And I had DA 1000 foot lower at one point. I can only dream. . . 9.85?

In hind sight, the car many times would bark the tires on the 1-2 shift pure stock. In fact you can see it spun the slicks on the slip log above pure stock. So if it was me, I would just command the 1-2 something like 200 RPM earlier and leave the pressure alone. On the 2-3 I might add a very small amount of pressure and shift it maybe 100 RPM earlier. This would be my 0 DA and lower tune. If I get another Super Stock, I am going to learn how to do this myself. @Speedy!

For a higher DA heavy load tune I would just add a significant amount of presure to the 2-3 and that should do it.

OK, now for the fun part. I ran that 9.953 at 4:19:10 in the Video.
The 9.944 was at 6:08:40.
The 9.908 was at 6:14:15.

 

[Speedy!]

Good info Ron, but I wouldn't let all that blah blah bother you. It's not like we get paid for racing these cars or having records at the end of the day right? It's all just for fun.

Unless I was seeing throttle torque source in the logs to go to "tqmgmt" I'd agree that simply lowering the commanded shift RPM in the TCM maybe even only 100 RPM would fix this problem.

I went back and looked at the files you sent me a while back. The HIGHEST shift RPM I can find in the trans is 6320RPM for the 1-2 and 6320 for the 2-3. Obviously it doesn't happen like "right now" so it'll push a little past the commanded RPM before the shift can complete. The other solution would be to bump the engine RPM up 100-200 RPM for rev limit but that would require a PCM tune.

Out of curiosity I spot checked a Demon tune file to compare. I'm not sure if shift patters are mapped the same or not, but in the ones I spot checked I did come across one that the Demon 2-3 was lower than the SS by about 100 RPM. All the others looked to be higher shift points for the Demon on the 3-4, 4-5, and 5-6. Everything else matched up at quick glance.

 

[DRAGRCR]

Good info Ron, but I wouldn't let all that blah blah bother you. It's not like we get paid for racing these cars or having records at the end of the day right? It's all just for fun.

Unless I was seeing throttle torque source in the logs to go to "tqmgmt" I'd agree that simply lowering the commanded shift RPM in the TCM maybe even only 100 RPM would fix this problem.

I went back and looked at the files you sent me a while back. The HIGHEST shift RPM I can find in the trans is 6320RPM for the 1-2 and 6320 for the 2-3. Obviously it doesn't happen like "right now" so it'll push a little past the commanded RPM before the shift can complete. The other solution would be to bump the engine RPM up 100-200 RPM for rev limit but that would require a PCM tune.

Out of curiosity I spot checked a Demon tune file to compare. I'm not sure if shift patters are mapped the same or not, but in the ones I spot checked I did come across one that the Demon 2-3 was lower than the SS by about 100 RPM. All the others looked to be higher shift points for the Demon on the 3-4, 4-5, and 5-6. Everything else matched up at quick glance.

One thing about the Super Stock is it seemed to have a good handle on the upper gear shifts because they are happening at a slower rate. Many times they would be in between the 6300 to 6400 range and no issues with the rev limiter/hiccups. You can really tell the car is pulling real good at that higher rpm down track.

Oh that Frostbite RedEye was the worst. I saw 6700 on the 1-2 shift on a couple logs before that thing would close the throttle and get ahold of the RPM. I would have tried adding pressure on that one as was suggested to me.

 

[TNREDEYE]

Ron,
On a slightly different note but still pertaining to the issue:
When these cars are lightened and hooked up on the track do you think the 2.62 gear option might slow things down enough to make the computer happy? I don't know of anyone that's tried this but you know more people than I do...

 

[DRAGRCR]

Ron,
On a slightly different note but still pertaining to the issue:
When these cars are lightened and hooked up on the track do you think the 2.62 gear option might slow things down enough to make the computer happy? I don't know of anyone that's tried this but you know more people than I do...

In the first example above with the 2-3 gear slip it would make it worse. I am not sure but I think I have heard of other cars hiccuping on the 2-3.

For the other issue I can see the rate of engine acceleration being slower and maybe a little less predictive intervention. But I kind of wonder if the clutches coming on with the greater load if it will acually drag the RPM down sooner and keep the motor away from the rev limiter. Another way of looking at it is the other example with my car. Simply raising pressure and hitting the clutches harder kept the RPM lower. A taller gear will fight that.

I only see the taller gear helping out on the starting line with a milder starting line ratio. The rest of the time I see it as a disadvantage. In fact the person tuning the B5 Blue Demon insisted we keep the car on a taller tire.

I am not saying it won't work. But keep in mind my Frostbite Blue car had 315/50R17's and they are taller. It did have 3.09's though. And that car eventually would have ended up on the Short Hoosier. It needed a lot of help.