Clutch Troubleshooting

[16GoManGoHC2]

It could be the fly wheel friction surface the center disk friction surfaces or the friction surface on the pressure plate or all of them warped from overheating or have high spots on them from hot spots due to somebody slipping the clutch too much trying to make better launches or not knowing how to drive a stick correctly. I know you don’t want to take the transmission back out again and maybe I should’ve suggested such to you when you had the clutch out to take the pressure plate off of it and inspect the center member for flatness along with the fly wheel and the pressure plate it’s just that you have to have a steel splines alignment tool to get it all back together with correctly again or you’ll never get the transmission through it and into the pilot bearing. You could buy one that will work but you have to make a special tip for it to match the pilot bearing size,I could turn you on to what I did to make one or you could use a broken transmission input shaft which there’s many of them out there including I have one lol I could send it to you borrow if needed. I doubt it’s the master cylinder but $200 is a cheap try but not too easy of a change I don’t think, it resides under the dash not out on the firewall in the engine bay.

 

[BULL]

Besides above

Try fast

 

[AeroF16]

It could be the fly wheel friction surface the center disk friction surfaces or the friction surface on the pressure plate or all of them warped from overheating or have high spots on them from hot spots due to somebody slipping the clutch too much trying to make better launches or not knowing how to drive a stick correctly. I know you don’t want to take the transmission back out again and maybe I should’ve suggested such to you when you had the clutch out to take the pressure plate off of it and inspect the center member for flatness along with the fly wheel and the pressure plate it’s just that you have to have a steel splines alignment tool to get it all back together with correctly again or you’ll never get the transmission through it and into the pilot bearing. You could buy one that will work but you have to make a special tip for it to match the pilot bearing size,I could turn you on to what I did to make one or you could use a broken transmission input shaft which there’s many of them out there including I have one lol I could send it to you borrow if needed. I doubt it’s the master cylinder but $200 is a cheap try but not too easy of a change I don’t think, it resides under the dash not out on the firewall in the engine bay.
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Doesn't Dodge sell the alignment tool?

I don’t mind pulling the trans again. Now that I’ve done it once, it should be a breeze the next time. Just takes a little bit of time but I’m in no hurry, can leave the car up in the air for as long as I want and just work on it when I want to and it fits my schedule.

It was worth it to pull it once and not spend the $1500 for a clutch just to see if cleaning the input shaft would work. If/when I pull it again, I think I might just replace the clutch with another OEM.

If it was in the clutch or flywheel surfaces, how would that explain the softer pedal feel (compared to the 2018 I drove?) Or are some years different! I thought the early years were supposed to be the stiffer ones.

 

[AeroF16]

Besides above

Try fast

Uh, what?

 

[BULL]

Fast clutch depresses, and also try that with pauses.

Move and break up the possibility of air bubbles better.

 

[BULL]

Pauses at the bottom that is

 

[BULL]

I say this because I've had a clutch with a persistent air bubble before.

I suffered for a long time until I figured it out

 

[AeroF16]

I say this because I've had a clutch with a persistent air bubble before.

I suffered for a long time until I figured it out

i appreciate the insight, easy enough and definitely worth a try.

 

[AeroF16]

I guess I don’t fully understand the self bleeding design here. If there is air trapped in the system, where does it go when it’s bled? Not like I’m cracking a valve for it to escape. It just finds it way to the top of the reservoir or something?

 

[BULL]

I guess I don’t fully understand the self bleeding design here. If there is air trapped in the system, where does it go when it’s bled? Not like I’m cracking a valve for it to escape. It just finds it way to the top of the reservoir or something?

I haven't looked at the physical circuit, but my presumption is that it's a gravity type system with the Slave Cylinder at the bottom of the hill.

The part that worries me is that it seems like there is plenty of opportunity for there to be "less than ideal" circumstance/areas in the circuit.

That's what got me thinking about the brakes and the jacking the rear of the car up...

 

[2ndgen]

Doesn't Dodge sell the alignment tool?

Not that I've seen anywhere. But these are the correct tool:
- MMX - pricey.
- Summit Racing (ignore the photo--it doesn't match what they send)
- Jegs

 

[AeroF16]

I haven't looked at the physical circuit, but my presumption is that it's a gravity type system with the Slave Cylinder at the bottom of the hill.

The part that worries me is that it seems like there is plenty of opportunity for there to be "less than ideal" circumstance/areas in the circuit.

That's what got me thinking about the brakes and the jacking the rear of the car up...

Yeah, the master sits on the clutch pedal assembly, plumbed to the brake reservoir, then a single line out of the red out downhill to the slave cylinder on the input shaft. That’s it.

Maybe I’ll try with the rear end up like the manual says. But I still don’t understand the execution. Chick front tires, jack up rear, bleed rear calipers, then lower and jack up the front and bleed the fronts?

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Doesn't Dodge sell the alignment tool?

I don’t mind pulling the trans again. Now that I’ve done it once, it should be a breeze the next time. Just takes a little bit of time but I’m in no hurry, can leave the car up in the air for as long as I want and just work on it when I want to and it fits my schedule.

It was worth it to pull it once and not spend the $1500 for a clutch just to see if cleaning the input shaft would work. If/when I pull it again, I think I might just replace the clutch with another OEM.

If it was in the clutch or flywheel surfaces, how would that explain the softer pedal feel (compared to the 2018 I drove?) Or are some years different! I thought the early years were supposed to be the stiffer ones.

I could never find one from Dodge the best is a input shaft from broken transmission give Rockland Stanard Gear George Mike they’ll probably sell you one cheap they have many of them laying around when this happens to the transmission which is often, The input shaft is useless and goes in the garbage except it makes a perfect clutch alignment tool of them a call if George isnt there ask for Mike he’s the guy in the shop that rebuilds these every day.


On bleeding the clutch I’ve probably had 10+ of these apart and except for bench bleeding a new throw out bearing assembly they always purged themselves of air on their own, it’s just by design oil goes in and out on the top of it so any bubbles make their way up the line and back to the master cylinder, I don’t think Air in the line is your problem

 

[Hickster]

Air separator is for.

 

[AeroF16]

Well, I installed the OEM shifter today and removed the Barton and all my shifting problems seem to be gone, a night and day difference in how smooth the car shifts now.

I’ve only got about 20 city miles on the OEM shifter, so only time will tell but I’m fairly certain the Barton shifter was the issue. Not sure how, I inspected everything as I was removing it and nothing seemed out of place, but the OEM shifter has the car shifting super smooth into every gear, even right out of the garage on a cold start.

 

[Old Mopar Guy]

Glad to hear that you're good to go, nice an cheap too, but what the hell's up with the shifter??? Maybe send it back to them for inspection/rebuild? It's definitely worth having, that's for sure!!! I love mine.

 

[AeroF16]

Glad to hear that you're good to go, nice an cheap too, but what the hell's up with the shifter??? Maybe send it back to them for inspection/rebuild? It's definitely worth having, that's for sure!!! I love mine.

Yeah, I had the opportunity to drive another M6 with a Barton and it was great. Would love to have it in my car if it worked well. I’ll reach out to Barton and see what they say.

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

Had a couple things to mention.
@BULL - if the pilot bearing/bushing isn’t perfectly aligned with the input shaft they make offset alignment dowels that move the tranny just enough to allow micro adjustments. You clock them as needed.The bolt holes usually have enough slack in them to not not cause problems. You can always hog out a hole a little, but the adjustments here are very small and that isn’t necessary.
@AeroF16 - I was going to recommend putting it back to stock to see if the problem persists. Between the valve and the shifter, there could be a couple problems from poor installation. Looks like removing the Barton seems to have helped. I doubt there is anything wrong with the shifter, and if you reinstall it properly, you’ll probably be fine.

 

[AeroF16]

Had a couple things to mention.
@BULL - if the pilot bearing/bushing isn’t perfectly aligned with the input shaft they make offset alignment dowels that move the tranny just enough to allow micro adjustments. You clock them as needed.The bolt holes usually have enough slack in them to not not cause problems. You can always hog out a hole a little, but the adjustments here are very small and that isn’t necessary.
@AeroF16 - I was going to recommend putting it back to stock to see if the problem persists. Between the valve and the shifter, there could be a couple problems from poor installation. Looks like removing the Barton seems to have helped. I doubt there is anything wrong with the shifter, and if you reinstall it properly, you’ll probably be fine.

I am the one who installed the Barton in the first place, so not sure how I would reinstall it any different.

I went through all the pictures and documentation of the tutorial on this website this morning as I was removing the Barton to see if there was anything I missed. There wasn’t.

There were also no signs of binding/rubbing anywhere, so I really have no explanation other than the geometry didn’t work and the looser tolerances of the OEM shifter allow for better alignment of the shift linkage.

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

I am the one who installed the Barton in the first place, so not sure how I would reinstall it any different.

I went through all the pictures and documentation of the tutorial on this website this morning as I was removing the Barton to see if there was anything I missed. There wasn’t.

There were also no signs of binding/rubbing anywhere, so I really have no explanation other than the geometry didn’t work and the looser tolerances of the OEM shifter allow for better alignment of the shift linkage.

But it was like this when you unloaded it out of the trailer, with the stock shifter, right?
The Barton self centers, the stock one doesn’t. Maybe there’s something funky going on there.