Tire rotating on wheel

[PaVaSteeler]

After reading this thread through to the end, seeing that the bead companies don't promote their product for low-pressure tire drag racing (thus won't advise on volume of beads to use), and considering the fact that at minimum, I'd have to spend $1,800 on a pair of single sided beadlock rims and tires that aren't prohibited from being mounted on beadlocks (as my MT ET Street Rs are prohibited)....I believe I'll deal with the occasional re-balancing costs associated with my tires spinning. If I find I'm approaching re-balancing for the 45th time, then I'll reconsider the investment.

(cost to rebalance = $40, divide $1,800 by $40 to arrive at 45 times)

 

[MaxCarnage]

Yeah the BS (like Welds) are pricey. Not as much as Bogarts, but still!! I have the Winlites and they are rediculously light. One thing I can say is when you hold one, you see where the money went. They are spectacular CNC billet aluminum art.

Good to know thanks! Might be worth saving up for them. Figure if I'm going to pay that kind of money, I might as well get the beadlock version. Right now I'm running a Racestar Recluse 17x10.5 with a +27 offset. They are heavy, around 25lbs each and they aren't even a beadlock wheel. Definitely a lower end wheel, but they've served their purpose over the last 2 years. After seeing how much my tire is slipping on the wheel, I think it's time for beadlocks. Who did you buy your DS Winlites from?

The other info I've seen is this:

My current setup Recluse 17x10.5 +27 offset

BS Winlite 17x10 6.5 backspacing (Non WB) (which equals +25.4 offset?)
D5's 17x10 +30 offset (same as Welds)

Not sure if the offsets matter that much, but I do want the wheel that fits best.

 

[MaxCarnage]

I have the D5's on the front of my car and Weld S71's on the rear. All powder coated matte black. They match really good considering they aren't the same brand. Neither are particularly light when compared to the Win Lite. MarcW is correct in that the Win Lites are a waayy nicer quality wheel. They are also as light as advertised. My only knock on them is that lots of these cars that you'll see at a drag strip have the Win Lite on them and they sort of all start to look alike after a while.

Having said all that I'm still considering the Win Lites(along w the Hoosier 28x10.5R17) as my 'drag only' setup strictly because of the weight.

Let me know if you end up testing those Hoosiers out. Most people run the MTs, so not a lot of data on the Hoosiers.

 

[Marc W]

Good to know thanks! Might be worth saving up for them. Figure if I'm going to pay that kind of money, I might as well get the beadlock version. Right now I'm running a Racestar Recluse 17x10.5 with a +27 offset. They are heavy, around 25lbs each and they aren't even a beadlock wheel. Definitely a lower end wheel, but they've served their purpose over the last 2 years. After seeing how much my tire is slipping on the wheel, I think it's time for beadlocks. Who did you buy your DS Winlites from?

The other info I've seen is this:

My current setup Recluse 17x10.5 +27 offset

BS Winlite 17x10 6.5 backspacing (Non WB) (which equals +25.4 offset?)
D5's 17x10 +30 offset (same as Welds)

Not sure if the offsets matter that much, but I do want the wheel that fits best.

. I bought them direct from Billet Specialties. It was when they first came out and I was going to a 15” in the rear and had to order them. They knew the specs for exactly what I needed and I didn’t want to trust a vendor on getting that right.

 

[motorhead]

After reading this thread through to the end, seeing that the bead companies don't promote their product for low-pressure tire drag racing (thus won't advise on volume of beads to use), and considering the fact that at minimum, I'd have to spend $1,800 on a pair of single sided beadlock rims and tires that aren't prohibited from being mounted on beadlocks (as my MT ET Street Rs are prohibited)....I believe I'll deal with the occasional re-balancing costs associated with my tires spinning. If I find I'm approaching re-balancing for the 45th time, then I'll reconsider the investment.

(cost to rebalance = $40, divide $1,800 by $40 to arrive at 45 times)

The “definition of insanity” quote first appeared in 1981, in a document published by Narcotics Anonymous. It was a sort of guide book for addicts who trying to overcome their disease, and it warned its readers that, “insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.” Narcotics Anonymous was trying to convince its members that continuing to use narcotic drugs and expecting to be able to stop on their own was folly.

It is strange that you are willing to accept perpetual sunk costs vs directly addressing the problem once. That is a bad business case. Buy once, cry once.

 

[MaxCarnage]

After reading this thread through to the end, seeing that the bead companies don't promote their product for low-pressure tire drag racing (thus won't advise on volume of beads to use), and considering the fact that at minimum, I'd have to spend $1,800 on a pair of single sided beadlock rims and tires that aren't prohibited from being mounted on beadlocks (as my MT ET Street Rs are prohibited)....I believe I'll deal with the occasional re-balancing costs associated with my tires spinning. If I find I'm approaching re-balancing for the 45th time, then I'll reconsider the investment.

(cost to rebalance = $40, divide $1,800 by $40 to arrive at 45 times)

Depends on the beadlocks, some are cheaper than others if you don't need high end ones. The Forgestars are a nice wheels at a great price imo. Forgestar D5's 17x10 Beadlocks can be had for $1100 for the pair. Other companies like Weld or BS cost that much per wheel. Depends on if you need top of the line wheels or not.

 

[Marc W]

Ok. I’m just going to say it.... some people just overthink some stuff too much. If your wheel is turning inside the tire and you are feeling some vibration..... just give the damn beads a try. It’s not going to hurt anything...... any more than that little bit of vibration you’re feeling is going to hurt anything on a quarter mile pass. It’s for a few seconds! If the beads don’t improve the situation then so what. The tire isn’t going to fly off the wheel. If it doesn’t work, then you wasted a couple bucks and you can check that off your list of options. As far as single bead locks vs double..... Tire manufacturers are covering their ass with every possible warning and “don’t do this” admonishment that the lawyers can come up with. So why double bead locks? At really high speed.... tires can grow and change shape. To the extent that if both beads aren’t locked they will unseat. Like for example on a fuel car. We are not running a huge tire like Pro Mods going over 200mph in the 1/8 mile that have that concern. All the top wheel manufactures (Weld, Bogart, Billet Specialties, +++) are making single bead locks for cars that don’t have those concerns due to the size of the tire and speeds they are running. Can the tire twist on the wheel some with a single bead lock? I don’t doubt that it’s possible. Do they? I haven’t heard of anybody having that problem, and even if it does it a little..... what’s it going to do? I’ve never heard of something bad happening that would have “people” talking about the “problem” or it being a “danger”. I don’t consider warning label liability lawyers “people”. I’ve run a single bead lock on more than one size wheel/tire combination and never had a problem. But.... I will start marking the inside to keep a eye on it and report back if there’s anything to report. Also.... I’ve run the drag slick with tube combination using screws in several applications and have had problems with that back in the day. I’ve ripped the valve stem off the tube and had the tire go flat at 160 mph on my drag bike. I’ve still spun the tire and ripped the bead to shreds with the screws. So yeah I’m not a big fan of that, but.... I’ve never had a issue with a single bead lock on a car.

 

[Magnified]

I agree , all of the different bead companies just show for big rigs , rock crawlers & m/c's.
And on 1 of the bead co. web site it said they won't work on low air pressure , so when at the track we lower our tire pressure , not sure if that's gonna be good ?

This is the key for these beads. If the tire is out of round when it launches its going to be very difficult for the beads to evenly distribute immediately. Sufficiently under inflated might result in a tiny "cupping" of the tire material in that area and an "uncommanded" or unnecessary gathering of the beads in that area. Or that's what it says to me. They are afraid of liability.

 

[DRAGRCR]

After reading this thread through to the end, seeing that the bead companies don't promote their product for low-pressure tire drag racing (thus won't advise on volume of beads to use), and considering the fact that at minimum, I'd have to spend $1,800 on a pair of single sided beadlock rims and tires that aren't prohibited from being mounted on beadlocks (as my MT ET Street Rs are prohibited)....I believe I'll deal with the occasional re-balancing costs associated with my tires spinning. If I find I'm approaching re-balancing for the 45th time, then I'll reconsider the investment.

(cost to rebalance = $40, divide $1,800 by $40 to arrive at 45 times)

You should use my system. I have been doing it for years now and it is not that hard. Plus you can re balance in the field with no tools. There are no additional costs to do this......

 

[Mean Cat]

You should use my system. I have been doing it for years now and it is not that hard. Plus you can re balance in the field with no tools. There are no additional costs to do this......

What is your system ? … explain ?

 

[PaVaSteeler]

You should use my system. I have been doing it for years now and it is not that hard. Plus you can re balance in the field with no tools. There are no additional costs to do this......

I'm all ears! Would appreciate learning what your system is.

 

[PaVaSteeler]

Ok. I’m just going to say it.... some people just overthink some stuff too much. If your wheel is turning inside the tire and you are feeling some vibration..... just give the damn beads a try. It’s not going to hurt anything...... any more than that little bit of vibration you’re feeling is going to hurt anything on a quarter mile pass. It’s for a few seconds! If the beads don’t improve the situation then so what. The tire isn’t going to fly off the wheel. If it doesn’t work, then you wasted a couple bucks and you can check that off your list of options. As far as single bead locks vs double..... Tire manufacturers are covering their ass with every possible warning and “don’t do this” admonishment that the lawyers can come up with. So why double bead locks? At really high speed.... tires can grow and change shape. To the extent that if both beads aren’t locked they will unseat. Like for example on a fuel car. We are not running a huge tire like Pro Mods going over 200mph in the 1/8 mile that have that concern. All the top wheel manufactures (Weld, Bogart, Billet Specialties, +++) are making single bead locks for cars that don’t have those concerns due to the size of the tire and speeds they are running. Can the tire twist on the wheel some with a single bead lock? I don’t doubt that it’s possible. Do they? I haven’t heard of anybody having that problem, and even if it does it a little..... what’s it going to do? I’ve never heard of something bad happening that would have “people” talking about the “problem” or it being a “danger”. I don’t consider warning label liability lawyers “people”. I’ve run a single bead lock on more than one size wheel/tire combination and never had a problem. But.... I will start marking the inside to keep a eye on it and report back if there’s anything to report. Also.... I’ve run the drag slick with tube combination using screws in several applications and have had problems with that back in the day. I’ve ripped the valve stem off the tube and had the tire go flat at 160 mph on my drag bike. I’ve still spun the tire and ripped the bead to shreds with the screws. So yeah I’m not a big fan of that, but.... I’ve never had a issue with a single bead lock on a car.

I freely admit I tend to over-think things at times. I double checked the MT site and it does not prohibit use of beadlocks, only rim screws. I'll get my wheels rebalanced and if the slippage continues, will try the beads.

The “definition of insanity” quote first appeared in 1981, in a document published by Narcotics Anonymous. It was a sort of guide book for addicts who trying to overcome their disease, and it warned its readers that, “insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.” Narcotics Anonymous was trying to convince its members that continuing to use narcotic drugs and expecting to be able to stop on their own was folly.

It is strange that you are willing to accept perpetual sunk costs vs directly addressing the problem once. That is a bad business case. Buy once, cry once.

It's not a bad business case if I don't know yet how many times I'd need to rebalance my wheels during the course of a racing season. If it's only a couple of times, the cost/benefit tips heavily towards simply rebalancing. If I find I'm approaching tens of times, then to continue sinking $$$ into rebalancing would be foolish.

 

[motorhead]

Double bead locks because safety.

 

[moparjim]

Ok. I’m just going to say it.... some people just overthink some stuff too much. If your wheel is turning inside the tire and you are feeling some vibration..... just give the damn beads a try. It’s not going to hurt anything...... any more than that little bit of vibration you’re feeling is going to hurt anything on a quarter mile pass. It’s for a few seconds! If the beads don’t improve the situation then so what. The tire isn’t going to fly off the wheel. If it doesn’t work, then you wasted a couple bucks and you can check that off your list of options. As far as single bead locks vs double..... Tire manufacturers are covering their ass with every possible warning and “don’t do this” admonishment that the lawyers can come up with. So why double bead locks? At really high speed.... tires can grow and change shape. To the extent that if both beads aren’t locked they will unseat. Like for example on a fuel car. We are not running a huge tire like Pro Mods going over 200mph in the 1/8 mile that have that concern. All the top wheel manufactures (Weld, Bogart, Billet Specialties, +++) are making single bead locks for cars that don’t have those concerns due to the size of the tire and speeds they are running. Can the tire twist on the wheel some with a single bead lock? I don’t doubt that it’s possible. Do they? I haven’t heard of anybody having that problem, and even if it does it a little..... what’s it going to do? I’ve never heard of something bad happening that would have “people” talking about the “problem” or it being a “danger”. I don’t consider warning label liability lawyers “people”. I’ve run a single bead lock on more than one size wheel/tire combination and never had a problem. But.... I will start marking the inside to keep a eye on it and report back if there’s anything to report. Also.... I’ve run the drag slick with tube combination using screws in several applications and have had problems with that back in the day. I’ve ripped the valve stem off the tube and had the tire go flat at 160 mph on my drag bike. I’ve still spun the tire and ripped the bead to shreds with the screws. So yeah I’m not a big fan of that, but.... I’ve never had a issue with a single bead lock on a car.

The tire beads is what I will be doing next. I have had the tires rotate almost halfway around in one day. But heading into semi finals you drive through the teeth rattling. LOL
I will probably balance the rear rim by itself or at least check the poverty stars for balance. Then add beads. It can't be worse than 12" of tire rotation that's for sure. The one problem it will help with is if I turn the tire so bad the passenger seat drives me nuts on the way home on a Saturday. Then I can't really address the problem and get back to the track on Sunday.😕 The beads will likely mean that won't be a problem anymore.
I think @FFBOS had or has beads in his setup.
As for the single bead lock. I know two people that have had the tire twist on the rim. There may be more but it doesn't exactly come up in every conversation. LOL
What happens is the inside still moved but the outside couldn't.
One car was an 8sec Drag car and apparently with slicks the is a crappy feeling. The other is Frenchcat had it happen once on his RE this summer. Basically it doesn't happen often and if it does it just vibrates like hell.

 

[Mean Cat]

You should use my system. I have been doing it for years now and it is not that hard. Plus you can re balance in the field with no tools. There are no additional costs to do this......

I'm guessing his system in a bubble balancer - DIY ?

 

[Mean Cat]

The tire beads is what I will be doing next. I have had the tires rotate almost halfway around in one day. But heading into semi finals you drive through the teeth rattling. LOL
I will probably balance the rear rim by itself or at least check the poverty stars for balance. Then add beads. It can't be worse than 12" of tire rotation that's for sure. The one problem it will help with is if I turn the tire so bad the passenger seat drives me nuts on the way home on a Saturday. Then I can't really address the problem and get back to the track on Sunday.😕 The beads will likely mean that won't be a problem anymore.
I think @FFBOS had or has beads in his setup.
As for the single bead lock. I know two people that have had the tire twist on the rim. There may be more but it doesn't exactly come up in every conversation. LOL
What happens is the inside still moved but the outside couldn't.
One car was an 8sec Drag car and apparently with slicks the is a crappy feeling. The other is Frenchcat had it happen once on his RE this summer. Basically it doesn't happen often and if it does it just vibrates like hell.

Hey Jim , don't know if you read my previous posts in this thread ? … I have had 2 bead companies that said not to use beads in racing tires where the air pressure will be low , the tire will cup & beads won't do right.
But yet some have still done it & apparently done ok ?

 

[Marc W]

While I haven’t had a problem with single bead locks.... I am going to start marking the inside and see if there is in fact any creep going on with that inside bead. One of the things that the video pointed out is.... a wide wheel and a tire that grows at speed will have the bead pulling away from the rim. That’s basically what I was saying could be a issue with high speed cars with big tires that grow on the burn out and when up to speed on the top end. That would definitely be a case for double bead locks. Radials like most of us run don’t do that to a degree that’s a problem. Plus most of us run a narrow 10” (11” on wide bodies) wheel that are not stretching the tire and pulling the bead away from the wheel causing it to be more likely to slip. Also one of the things in the video that man talked about was the danger of not running bead locks and having one tire slip on the wheel while the other doesn’t and causing a loss of control. He’s talking about drag cars that run a spool. That does not apply to anyone here except probably me. Our cars have limited slip differentials and even traction control that is not going to allow the car to drive left or right because of something like that. Cars that run a spool (like I do) basically lock the rear so the tires turn equally. In that case, if one tire is turning different than the other it can affect the directional drive of the car. Anyway.... good video.

 

[Marc W]

I'm guessing his system in a bubble balancer - DIY ?

Ron has in the past chased the balance by relocating the weights on the wheel as it turns inside the tire to keep up with it. I think he was taping the weights on which allowed him to simply move them to corresponding marks on the tire. He’s a hard worker. 😂

 

[moparjim]

While I haven’t had a problem with single bead locks.... I am going to start marking the inside and see if there is in fact any creep going on with that inside bead. One of the things that the video pointed out is.... a wide wheel and tire growth at speed will have the bead pulling away from the rim. That’s basically what I was saying could be a issue with high speed cars with big tires that grow on the burn out and when up to speed on the top end. That would definitely be a case for double bead locks. Radials like most of us run don’t do that to a degree that’s a problem. Plus most of us run a narrow 10” (11” on wide bodies) wheel that are not stretching the tire and pulling the bead away from the wheel causing it to be more likely to slip. Also one of the things in the video that man talked about was the danger of not running bead locks and having one tire slip on the wheel while the other doesn’t and causing a loss of control. He’s talking about drag cars that run a spool. That does not apply to anyone here except probably me. Our cars have limited slip differentials and even traction control that is not going to allow the car to drive left or right because of something like that. Cars that run a spool (like I do) basically lock the rear so the tires turn equally. In that case, if one tire is turning different than the other it can affect the directional drive of the car. Anyway.... good video.

I think Frenchcat had his move on the inside because his pressure was way low. He was at another track with marginal prep. I know he was trying a bunch of stuff to get the car to leave good. I doubt it would be an issue normally.

 

[moparjim]

Hey Jim , don't know if you read my previous posts in this thread ? … I have had 2 bead companies that said not to use beads in racing tires where the air pressure will be low , the tire will cup & beads won't do right.
But yet some have still done it & apparently done ok ?

Yes I saw that. If I listened to everybody I wouldn't be driving a HC. Never mind on drag radials to the track.
I guess they have to cover themselves to a certain point.
I know a few run the beads at my track. Even if it doesn't balance perfectly with the beads. Mine are only balanced until the first launch on a freshly mounted pair of drag radials. Then it's vibration until that works it's way up to a shake.
Like @Marc W stated what have I got to loose. I spent 5 trips to the tire shop 1/2hr from my place and $60 a visit to rebalance. The damn beads might only cost $60 to get.
If i can save 4hrs driving plus re and re wheels on the car. Not to mention the $240 saved in balancing. In my case I will give it a shot. In my case since sanding the inside of the wheel they don't even move nearly as bad as they used to. Mostly the left one.